Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

General Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Theories & Speculation => Topic started by: LouE68 on March 03, 2010, 11:25:26 PM

Title: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on March 03, 2010, 11:25:26 PM
I, by no means know it all...most of my theory is based on my take on things with the facts I think I've been shown...so here it goes..I posted this in another post earlier, and someone else said close to the same thing....

I think we get a clearer picture of what is going on...
Smocke/Flocke/Mib/Locke what ever you want to call him...wants to get home, we know that for a fact, where that is, is not important right now, I know to some it is, but for the big picture, it is NOT. OK so we know that part MiB wants to go home, he has also been making promises to a few so far, told, Sawyer don't you want to go home, Claire obviously wants Aaron back so we assume thats what he promised her, and now Sayid is promised to have Nadia in exchange for his help. Obviously his help was to kill Dogen and get in the temple, even that seems a bit unclear at the point, but it is what it is.
So lets change our thought for a second and think about the flash sideways. What's is going on in this world of what "would" have happened if the bomb went off and the plane had not crashed. What do we have?! No island and no Jacob! So in the flash sideways Jack seems to be having a pretty good life now with his son David, Claire seems to be wanting to keep Aaron, Kate is running like she likes(which is still kind iffy but thats all we got right now) and now Sayid seems to  get the relationship with Nadia that he wanted. So in essence, MiB won in the flash sideways. His promises fullfilled...our losties get what they want, or think they get what they want.
So back on the island MiB is promising the things we see in the flash sideways...but it's not over, we still have Jack and Hurley, maybe Sawyer(we don't know the effects MiB has had yet) Jacob still has a chance, maybe, or maybe this is where the two start to connect(time lines)...what would have happened and what is being promised by MiB...that's all I got at this point, thanks for reading...that was my little epiphany moment   

I often read and hear people say what's the point to Jacob, if all it is, is to self sustain himself...well, yes, that is the point...along with their purpose to help sustain Jacob, you could look at it as a viscious circle, I AM! to help Jacob so I can live to help Jacob, is there anything really wrong with that? or Do I have a happy life in the real world outside of the island...that's the choice, that's the perspective, seems simple and maybe it just is THAT simple...plus we havent seen yet if making the choice with MiB, even tho you get what you want, is the right decision...there may be a tougher harder consequence to getting what you want..opening pandoras box, so to speak, has consequences...

Aaaaand let me just say, about all the other mysteries...the ash, the donkey wheel, the healing pool...and any other mystery you just cant wrap your head around. It's a show!!! Did you expect an explanation of how the hyperdrive worked on Star Was, or the lightsaber? Or the Force for that matter? NO!! we don't need it, because thats part of what makes it great, its fiction and its just accepted in the story, just like the donkey wheel is just part of the island, it's there it works...the ash, yeah if we actually had some ash and a hyperdrive, oh what a wonderful place our world would be...

Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: jugdish on March 03, 2010, 11:47:51 PM
I like this a lot because it makes me think of the sideways time line differently. I always pictured it as if Jacob never existed. Now I like this idea that the sideways time line is what happens if MIB wins.

Maybe the sideways timeline looks better now but we will see what happens.

Definitely gives me more to think about.
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on March 04, 2010, 01:42:27 AM
Thanks Juggy, it's a work in progress LOL

also

I'm having an uncomfortable feeling about this infected, under the influence and claimed terminology...they can be used to describe it, but using other words too may make it sound "not so mystical"

Jacob seems to have "influenced" Hurley to take the case...Jacob told Locke, after he fell out of the window, "everything is going to be alright, I'm sorry this had to happen" and he touched him. Now does that give Locke some mystic power transfered, because he touched him? Or is it just that hope, that inspiration, the willingness to live further, because someone told you, "everything is going to be alright".
Now MiB seems to be infecting people...or is he just influencing them by his words and promises. Does Claire have to be possesed, or infected to believe she can get Aaron back? *


*ideas subject to change upon viewing next episode*
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: nomteticus on March 04, 2010, 08:48:14 PM
Well, if the two of us arrived independently at the same theory, we may be on to something. The bomb may have just brought them back, the island may be sunk because of something MIB did, and apparently MIB has kept his promises (which makes him a better guy than Jacob).

Promises kept (including my own speculation):
Claire - the chance to raise Aaron from the beginning
Jack - the joy of having a son
Sayid - Nadia being alive
Hurley - being lucky instead of unlucky
Kate - not so clear on this one, she is actually in a worse condition than before (she killed the wrong guy), but we still have time to see
Jin and Sun - well, maybe Sun or Jin die before they meet in 2007, so MIB promises the one left alive to reunite them
Sawyer - going back home, clean slate, maybe not killing that dude
etc.

And it makes sense for the flashforwards to be the result of MIB winning, since that would mean that they are the characters' resolutions.
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LostinLock on March 04, 2010, 09:17:30 PM
Okay I get what you are saying here, but 2004 the plane lands so the sideways is what would have happened if they didn't crash.
If they didn't crash and were successful in stopping the future events then Jacob would not have touched them.  Which means that the lives we see in 2004 LA X landing means that is their life without Jacob touching them.

Theoretically MIB would still be "trapped" a Smokey (for sake of discussion) as we have yet to find out how and when he died.
So I can't see how the sideways is if MIB won.

From my view point MIB  "influencing" Claire, is more mind control to get her to do his bidding.  Because he could not do some things on his own. He uses what is dear to her hear to keep her under his influence.  Like a Svengali, he is preying on her most precious desire.  He said the same to Sayid.  And for James he wants to go home.  Will he deliver, well that is to be seen. 

  Now yes, Jacob was helping Hurley get back to the island and "influenced" him also. Jacob's approach is less abrupt than MIB and well, he knows that the people he touched have something to do and he is making sure they are going to achieve that.  He also uses their "weaknesses" to get them to where they need to be.  I still say Locke was not dead when Jacob touched him.  But Jacobs light well helped him back to the live place.

 Both are charismatic in their own way and have the ability of getting people to things.  So correct basically both are using something they have, a power, to achieve goals that need to be done.   

Maybe they are mystical and have abilities, but I still think the Island has given them these abilities.

I also agree about the little mysteries and not all being answered.  I think we have beaten some of these beyond the point of death.

I still say that Jacob and MIB both have an agenda and will do what they need to do to achieve it and that is at the expense of human lives, both are responsible there.
And when this ends it will be progress and they will come again and do the same thing they did before.

Good job Cowboy up, and I think this is most I have seen you write in several years.   ;D
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: nomteticus on March 06, 2010, 07:04:50 PM
We still don't know where or what MIB is in alternate 2004, so he may have escaped...
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: lostlady on March 06, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
I like this theory too. I think too in the previous seasons the flashforwards and flashbacks were what life was like when Jacob touched them and the sideways timeline is when MIB influenced them. I am guessing that the timeline they end up with will bea result of either Jacob or MIB 'winning' or perhaps they will get a choice in which timeline they want to live in.
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LostinLock on March 07, 2010, 09:39:45 AM
But MIB didn't influence anyone.  He said to Sawyer you are here because at some point Jacob touched you. MIB was trapped he doens't bring people to the island or touch them.    Remember the conversation on the beach sets the stage for the challenges between these two.  And Dogen also stated that until Jacob was dead MIB was trapped.  So from how I have been seeing the story that MIB would not be someone who brought these folks here or would have touched them he had no reason.
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: lostlady on March 07, 2010, 02:53:39 PM
Right, MIB never touched them but he is influencing them now. He is no longer trapped and able to get them to do things for him and their reward will be the sideways timeline.
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LostinLock on March 07, 2010, 05:25:51 PM
Maybe
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: razzle-dazzle on March 07, 2010, 07:51:31 PM
I think the Alt/Flashsideways/etc is what MIB will offer everyone. It's the deal with the devil.

Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: laklost on March 08, 2010, 12:01:19 AM
I think the Alt/Flashsideways/etc is what MIB will offer everyone. It's the deal with the devil.



Me too.  Each week seems to be bearing this out.

I'll amend nometicus' terrific list to include for Kate her freedom to be helpful and connect with someone. And I can't discount yet the fact that she encouraged Claire to have and keep Aaron - which although I can't explain it I think is a major act of heroism to the overarching story.
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 08, 2010, 12:26:30 AM
I brought this idea up on the podcast this week, but I neglected to give credit to its originator.  Sorry, CowboyUp!  I didn't mean to steal your idea!  :D


But yes-  I like it!  & is MIB really "evil incarnate" when so many seem so happy/well adjusted?
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on March 08, 2010, 09:07:03 PM
I think the Alt/Flashsideways/etc is what MIB will offer everyone. It's the deal with the devil.



Me too.  Each week seems to be bearing this out.

I'll amend nometicus' terrific list to include for Kate her freedom to be helpful and connect with someone. And I can't discount yet the fact that she encouraged Claire to have and keep Aaron - which although I can't explain it I think is a major act of heroism to the overarching story.
Awesome, I knew it was Kate some how too...yes, her freedom...it seems she may be actually innocent in the sideways flash...thanks LakLost!!!
I brought this idea up on the podcast this week, but I neglected to give credit to its originator.  Sorry, CowboyUp!  I didn't mean to steal your idea!  :D


But yes-  I like it!  & is MIB really "evil incarnate" when so many seem so happy/well adjusted?
Oh did you mention it in the podcast, I must have missed that ::) heehee thankies!!!  ;D
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on March 08, 2010, 09:25:06 PM
Your post makes me think...and I never thought I'd say this...but I'd really like to get another Kate episode!  I've got to know what her crime, or what is now seeming like a supposed crime, was!
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on March 08, 2010, 11:24:48 PM
I think we will see her again in a flash sideways...it's getting to the point, I think, they are going to start crossing paths more often, I guess they kinda have to for the show sake, and just the idea that you cant change certain things, which they have shown, their meetings and interactions are just meant to be...TPTB have mentions a convergence, not sure what that means, but maybe the characters will interact more as the show gets closer to the end...so yes, I'd like to see what happens or is happening to Kate...I know in teh What Kate Does thread, there was mention of a set up, good theory I think...
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on March 24, 2010, 01:23:16 AM
I think my theory is shaping up nicely!!!
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on April 07, 2010, 12:10:54 AM
yes yes...playing out perfectly! *Mr Burns voice*
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: PrincessLeia on April 15, 2010, 10:38:37 PM
Who was it that came right out & said that they seemed to have everything they wanted?
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on April 19, 2010, 11:31:49 PM
Who was it that came right out & said that they seemed to have everything they wanted?
?
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on April 23, 2010, 11:35:38 PM
it seems as the sideways goes on, and as the original Losties realize Flocke isn't the way, the more the sideways starts changing....
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on May 04, 2010, 11:35:49 PM
Figured I'd post it here...i called it...Locke wanted them all dead...not from this thread, but its part of another thread...yay me!!!
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 04, 2010, 11:40:02 PM
Figured I'd post it here...i called it...Locke wanted them all dead...not from this thread, but its part of another thread...yay me!!!

I've been calling that too. Ever since the many back and forths with OPG.
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on May 04, 2010, 11:49:56 PM
Figured I'd post it here...i called it...Locke wanted them all dead...not from this thread, but its part of another thread...yay me!!!

I've been calling that too. Ever since the many back and forths with OPG.
Yup I need to find which earlier episode I put it in...
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 05, 2010, 12:23:45 AM
The island is underwater in '04, and inhabited in '07. Go.

Um, I don't mean to speak for opgelost, but I think (THINK!), that maybe, we are dealing with two different timelines?
Just a hunch.

And BTW, I'm with you opgelost, at least in the sense that the original destiny is the one without Jacob's influence, and the one that MIB wanted to preserve, whereas Jacob's will is obviously the LOST timeline. Is it a coincidence that the MIB's preferred timeline is the one where David exists? That remains to be seen, but it's pretty shortsighted to ignore that odd connection.

Right. 2 different Timelines. In my theory I say Dimensions, in his he says Timelines. I am failing to see where an endgame falls into place here. MiB wants to go home. Where is that in this timeline? How does he achieve that from killing off the candidates as he appears wot to do? Also what makes David head back in time to the island to become MiB....in about 20 years? All of these things still need explaining in the remainder of these 12 Episodes. Unique Swing at things, but I feel this one is a miss. I don't necessarily disagree at the objectives of MiB (New Dimension) or Jacob (LOST dimension), just feel that no chance David is MiB. They would have a hell of alot of character development to get David to the point where he becomes MiB.

Wrote it after Lighthouse. Leader in the clubhouse for "MiB wants to kill the candidates pool"
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on May 05, 2010, 07:28:13 AM
Oh mine was after but alittle more specific...

Locke is trying really hard to get everyone on the plane...why? Richard wants to stop them now...Locke can't leave as long as Jacob is alive, Jacob is dead but one of the losties is a candidate, one of them is alive and stopping Locke from leaving. I think Locke wants to ge the losties on the plane and crash it...killing all them and whoever is the new  Jacob.....therefore releasing Locke from the island...
;D
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on May 12, 2010, 08:28:47 PM
With all the hubbub about what the island is, what is being kept in, what will happen if Mib leaves or stays is he evil, yada yada....I'm thinking what is Mib...is he still Jacobs brother, or does he just have Jacobs brothers memories...like Locke, Mib said he remembered what Locke was thinking just before he died...does MiB keep these memories and like the smoke, has no substance, no soul....So now, Mib is the man or being of science, and Jacob (if he passes it to Jack) the man of faith...the old switch-a-roo....
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: goober on May 13, 2010, 06:08:36 PM
Just thinking.... Two sides, one light, one dark... The light in the cave, smokey may be the dark to its light... Jacob's momma says that the light is in everyone... so is the dark in everyone?... is smokey just an accumulation of everyone's dark side?... did smokey exist before Jacob and his brother?... Was Claudia smokey in disguise?... I'm thinking that Jacob's brother died when he went into the light and became a part of what we call smokey. I'm thinking that the darkness has been trying to escape the island since before Jacob and his brother came along.... just sayin' :-)
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: I_Am_Jacob on May 14, 2010, 01:19:15 AM
Just thinking.... Two sides, one light, one dark... The light in the cave, smokey may be the dark to its light... Jacob's momma says that the light is in everyone... so is the dark in everyone?... is smokey just an accumulation of everyone's dark side?... did smokey exist before Jacob and his brother?... Was Claudia smokey in disguise?... I'm thinking that Jacob's brother died when he went into the light and became a part of what we call smokey. I'm thinking that the darkness has been trying to escape the island since before Jacob and his brother came along.... just sayin' :-)

Yeah I disagree with this here. I don't think Claudia was the Smoke at all. And as far as the Light Pool goes, we know two things about interaction with it.

1: If you enter, what awaits is a fate WORSE than death. Not a fate OF death

2: Jacob and MiB can't kill each other.

So MiB dying during this exchange violates both of these parameters.
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: RM on May 15, 2010, 10:16:47 AM
So, the more I think about "Across The Sea", the more I think that none of the characters truly understands what is going on.

The Losties barely have an idea that Jacob and MiB are superhuman entities, but Jacob only cryptically gives guidance to Hurley and MiB is outright lying, telling each individual whatever they want to hear.

The Others were under the leadership of Ben, who never even spoke to Jacob.  They didn't understand anything beyond "protect the Island" and interpreted that from their own corrupt perspective.  (Steal babies; terrorize and murder the ones who don't matter -- no problem, "We're the Good People.")

Richard never even knew Jacob was looking for candidates for his replacement.  He just blindly followed his boss' orders, believing it was all for the greater good.  But he spent years believing John Locke was special and wound up being duped into playing a pivotal role in his own boss' murder.

Now we see Jacob was just another man who got roped into being the Island's protector, but "the Island is a cork holding evil in its place" seems to be his own personal spin on the supernatural events he's witnessed.  We certainly didn't see any "proof" in "Across The Sea" that's actually what's going on.

MiB now seems like a man who was turned into a Smoke Monster because his brother threw him into the Cave of Light.  Sure, that spat out his original human husk -- "The Devil stole my body" -- and gave him some supernatural powers, but his persona still thinks of himself as a man who just wants to get back to "home" to his people -- even though the Romans of Claudia's time are long gone.  If he secretly wants something beyond that, we weren't shown that, either.  Does he even know what will really happen if he does kill all the candidates and escape?  If so, we haven't been shown it.

At this point, the overall theme of this show is that Man is superstitious and invents magical meaning and purpose for the events he experiences that he doesn't fully understand; but if you pull back, everyone seems to be operating on false assumptions they've invented for themselves.

If Jacob and MiB are all-knowing, that's the opposite of what they just showed us.

If Eloise and Charles are all-knowing, they haven't shown us that, either.  And, at this point, it would be in complete opposition to the one consistent theme TPTB seem to be going for.
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on May 21, 2010, 08:38:31 PM
Oh my head is spinning...I don't care who's right, I just wanna see the ending!
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LostinLock on May 23, 2010, 02:28:56 PM
So, the more I think about "Across The Sea", the more I think that none of the characters truly understands what is going on.

The Losties barely have an idea that Jacob and MiB are superhuman entities, but Jacob only cryptically gives guidance to Hurley and MiB is outright lying, telling each individual whatever they want to hear.
I am not sure superhuman is the correct term, but they are not the average bears.  Jacob had abilities but can die, so peraphs they are island powered.  I think that the Losties know that MIB is a liar look at James he didn't follow and Claire got a clue on.  Jacob is not cryptic he does with hold information and he told Hurley why he did with the lighthouse.  He does not like to tell folks what to do

The Others were under the leadership of Ben, who never even spoke to Jacob.  They didn't understand anything beyond "protect the Island" and interpreted that from their own corrupt perspective.  (Steal babies; terrorize and murder the ones who don't matter -- no problem, "We're the Good People.")
no they would not speak to Jacob because Richard was there to do that job.  Rewatch Ab Eterno and listen to job Richard accepts.  The most they would get from Jacob was a list.  Ben was a figurehead and that was it.  They stole one baby and that was Alex and Ben did that and it was not what Widmore wanted.  They needed to keep the island safe and protected and if they didn't do it smokey will

Richard never even knew Jacob was looking for candidates for his replacement.  He just blindly followed his boss' orders, believing it was all for the greater good.  But he spent years believing John Locke was special and wound up being duped into playing a pivotal role in his own boss' murder.
Richard was not hired to know what Jacob was doing he was there to keep the others in tact.  As for JL being special well he was after all.  It was part of the island plan

Now we see Jacob was just another man who got roped into being the Island's protector, but "the Island is a cork holding evil in its place" seems to be his own personal spin on the supernatural events he's witnessed.  We certainly didn't see any "proof" in "Across The Sea" that's actually what's going on.
I believe we did.  We know that his brother wants to leave and that Jacob over time may have been given additional inforamation on the events.
MiB now seems like a man who was turned into a Smoke Monster because his brother threw him into the Cave of Light.  Sure, that spat out his original human husk -- "The Devil stole my body" -- and gave him some supernatural powers, but his persona still thinks of himself as a man who just wants to get back to "home" to his people -- even though the Romans of Claudia's time are long gone.  If he secretly wants something beyond that, we weren't shown that, either.  Does he even know what will really happen if he does kill all the candidates and escape?  If so, we haven't been shown it.

At this point, the overall theme of this show is that Man is superstitious and invents magical meaning and purpose for the events he experiences that he doesn't fully understand; but if you pull back, everyone seems to be operating on false assumptions they've invented for themselves.

disagree

If Jacob and MiB are all-knowing, that's the opposite of what they just showed us.
who said they are all knowing that is the issue that certain assumptions were made of them being all knowing all powereful  It is similar to your point above operating on false assumptions

If Eloise and Charles are all-knowing, they haven't shown us that, either.  And, at this point, it would be in complete opposition to the one consistent theme TPTB seem to be going for.
the show is not over and Ellie and Charles knew more than they exposed for whatever reasons they chose not to expose is their choice.


honestly there is a lot there going on and we tend to be miopic withour views of the show
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LostinLock on May 23, 2010, 05:53:53 PM
Okay I get what you are saying here, but 2004 the plane lands so the sideways is what would have happened if they didn't crash.
If they didn't crash and were successful in stopping the future events then Jacob would not have touched them.  Which means that the lives we see in 2004 LA X landing means that is their life without Jacob touching them.

Theoretically MIB would still be "trapped" a Smokey (for sake of discussion) as we have yet to find out how and when he died.
--------------Well, we did find out and he is in Smokey forever.
So I can't see how the sideways is if MIB won.

From my view point MIB  "influencing" Claire, is more mind control to get her to do his bidding.  Because he could not do some things on his own. He uses what is dear to her hear to keep her under his influence.  Like a Svengali, he is preying on her most precious desire.  He said the same to Sayid.  And for James he wants to go home.  Will he deliver, well that is to be seen. 

-----------------------------And again to date death and destruction Sayid is dead,  Claire is MIA and he told Ben he wanted to destroy the island.  I am leaning on he is a liar.

  Now yes, Jacob was helping Hurley get back to the island and "influenced" him also. Jacob's approach is less abrupt than MIB and well, he knows that the people he touched have something to do and he is making sure they are going to achieve that.  He also uses their "weaknesses" to get them to where they need to be.  I still say Locke was not dead when Jacob touched him.  But Jacobs light well helped him back to the live place.
-----------------------------Okay well now we know that he choose these folks because they were flawed/weaknesses and has given them free choice all along.  Even in the end with Jack as he choose to watch the island.



 Both are charismatic in their own way and have the ability of getting people to things.  So correct basically both are using something they have, a power, to achieve goals that need to be done.   
------------------------ Both have agendas and both want to get something done.

Maybe they are mystical and have abilities, but I still think the Island has given them these abilities.
------------------------------ spot on here


I also agree about the little mysteries and not all being answered.  I think we have beaten some of these beyond the point of death.
----------------------------------- Well we have a few of these things answered like the donkey wheel and other minor details that helped flow this along

I still say that Jacob and MIB both have an agenda and will do what they need to do to achieve it and that is at the expense of human lives, both are responsible there.

---------------------And Jacob did admit he was responsible for his brothers current state
And when this ends it will be progress and they will come again and do the same thing they did before.

Good job Cowboy up, and I think this is most I have seen you write in several years.   ;D
Title: Re: My Jacob and MiB theory
Post by: LouE68 on May 26, 2010, 08:40:24 PM
I'm so glad I was wrong...if I would have figured it out I wouldnt be so happy...I'm glad I actually had a theory tho...