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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x05 => Topic started by: Ladybug on March 02, 2010, 11:00:13 PM

Title: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Ladybug on March 02, 2010, 11:00:13 PM
sayid has gone to the dark side.  so does that mean that smokey can infest multiple people?[/color[
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: katbriil on March 02, 2010, 11:03:01 PM
Sayid and Claire both. I don't know if he's so much "infesting" multiple people as maybe "infecting" their brains. Mind control or something. But I don't think Smokey is split into pieces and in a bunch of bodies at once.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: musicotb on March 02, 2010, 11:04:04 PM
Jack should have let him take the pill
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Ladybug on March 02, 2010, 11:05:31 PM
oh, how could i forget claire.   
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: vickilynn on March 02, 2010, 11:22:46 PM
But, I'm not ready to call Sayid evil. I'm glad he killed Dogen and Lennon (It is only a tv show; I do not condone killing in real life)
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: losttill0208 on March 02, 2010, 11:25:12 PM
But, I'm not ready to call Sayid evil. I'm glad he killed Dogen and Lennon (It is only a tv show; I do not condone killing in real life)
Sayid is definitely evil. He many not have been when he left the temple but he was when he came back.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Bostonlost on March 02, 2010, 11:26:25 PM
Not buying this Evil thing yet

Even in the Old Testement God wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Folly529 on March 02, 2010, 11:28:18 PM
But, I'm not ready to call Sayid evil. I'm glad he killed Dogen and Lennon (It is only a tv show; I do not condone killing in real life)
Sayid is definitely evil. He many not have been when he left the temple but he was when he came back.
That could be the sickness in his heart - the whole darkness taking over bit from Dogan's original explanation of the infection.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: infrared41 on March 02, 2010, 11:29:13 PM
But, I'm not ready to call Sayid evil. I'm glad he killed Dogen and Lennon (It is only a tv show; I do not condone killing in real life)
That's good to know.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Jungle Otter on March 02, 2010, 11:31:01 PM
Not buying this Evil thing yet

Even in the Old Testement God wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah

Dunno - the Temple people appeared to be rather peaceful, not wicked. What MIB did looked rather evil. Although I do see your point - those that don't leave now will be destroyed.

What I want to know is what Dogen would have done to stop him.....I'm not sure Dogen had to be killed
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: infrared41 on March 02, 2010, 11:46:40 PM
What I want to know is what Dogen would have done to stop him.....I'm not sure Dogen had to be killed
Dogen was killed because he sent Sayid out to kill un-Locke. It was a revenge thing. That's how they let us know that Sayid is now in un-Locke's camp.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: dragonflyk on March 02, 2010, 11:48:11 PM
Not buying this Evil thing yet

Even in the Old Testement God wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah

Dunno - the Temple people appeared to be rather peaceful, not wicked. What MIB did looked rather evil. Although I do see your point - those that don't leave now will be destroyed.

What I want to know is what Dogen would have done to stop him.....I'm not sure Dogen had to be killed

Maybe that is what the boy in the forest was talking about?? You can't kill HIM?? Him being Dogen...so like Jacob, he had someone else do his bidding for him?

Just a suggestion...
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Bostonlost on March 02, 2010, 11:53:20 PM
It was the temple people and Jacob followers that had no problem killing Jack-Kate-Sayid-Miles- Hurley-Jin

It was Jacob that seemed not to bothered with a car plowing into Nadia...Jacob would have given the OK to kill Dharma? yes?

Jacob never got a message to Richard when the Oceanoc flight crashed to let these certain candidates live.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: LouE68 on March 03, 2010, 12:00:05 AM
sayid has gone to the dark side.  so does that mean that smokey can infest multiple people?[/color[
I think we are looking at this too hard, it's beyond explaination at this point...you just have to take it at face value, Smockes presense, his voice or his influence is all it takes...you cant explain it and you dont need to...Smocke has the ability to swing people to his side, and that's apparently enough...
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Roman122 on March 03, 2010, 12:11:04 AM
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I dont know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Bostonlost on March 03, 2010, 12:17:51 AM
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I dont know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Roman122 on March 03, 2010, 12:19:43 AM
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I dont know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: jamesl on March 03, 2010, 12:21:11 AM
... What MIB did looked rather evil.

.....I'm not sure Dogen had to be killed
it reminded me of the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where the spirit of god came out of the ark and killed all the nazis

Dogen was killed because he sent Sayid out to kill un-Locke. It was a revenge thing. That's how they let us know that Sayid is now in un-Locke's camp.

Dogen had to be killed because he was keeping MIB out, right ?
we saw in the beginning that Flocke and Claire were standing just outside teh circle of ash around the temple and Flocke sent Claire inside
he even said he go do it himself
we never saw the circle of ash broken, but smokey was able to finally come in
and didn't Lennon say, "He (Dogen) was the only thing keeping him (Smokey) out"
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: tonysee200x on March 03, 2010, 12:24:30 AM
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I dont know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?

Fwiw - Jacob always makes a point of saying "you have a choice" when trying to get someone to do something.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Bostonlost on March 03, 2010, 12:34:48 AM
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I don't know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?

Well for one sending people to the island....

Sending Hurley to the lighthouse

Jacob seemingly takes away Free will...and the characters perceive it as "fate" ...albeit in passive aggressive form

Even watching Nadia being hit be a car...Jacob is pulling strings. What is his end game? It is to benefit Jacob
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Roman122 on March 03, 2010, 12:43:52 AM
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I don't know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?

Well for one sending people to the island....

Sending Hurley to the lighthouse

Jacob seemingly takes away Free will...and the characters perceive it as "fate" ...albeit in passive aggressive form

Even watching Nadia being hit be a car...Jacob is pulling strings. What is his end game? It is to benefit Jacob

I cant really argue with this....
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: snoopafly on March 03, 2010, 02:59:11 AM
What I'm seeing here is a repeat of a theme... MIB is using the weaknesses and wants of the candidates (& Claire?) to recruit/manipulate them...

Sawyer: Wants to get off of the island in a VERY bad way to get rid of the place where so many bad things happened to him.

Claire: Wants nothing more than to have her baby back.

Sayid: We saw tonight that all he's ever wanted was Nadia... MIB totally used "what if you could?" to manipulate him...

I don't know if he's planning on doing this sort of thing with Jack, Kate and Hurley but I guess we'll have to wait and see

But isn't Jacob doing the same thing?

In a way I guess, Can you provide examples of outright manipulation?

Well for one sending people to the island....

Sending Hurley to the lighthouse

Jacob seemingly takes away Free will...and the characters perceive it as "fate" ...albeit in passive aggressive form

Even watching Nadia being hit be a car...Jacob is pulling strings. What is his end game? It is to benefit Jacob

I cant really argue with this....

Also don't forget that the Others who consider themselves followers of Jacob, they're actions are his responsibility as well. Kidnapping children and babies, purging the Dharma Initiative...whether Jacob explicitly ordered this tasks to occur doesn't really matter, since he allowed it to be done in his name. Doesn't really sound like the actions of a benevolent person to me.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: nomteticus on March 03, 2010, 06:07:27 AM
Sayid is not evil, and he's not doing it out of revenge: he is just rational. A demigod that can't be killed offers to bring back Nadia if he offs Dogen, so naturally he does it. Why would he care about Dogen after all he did to him?
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: muggle_born on March 03, 2010, 07:15:51 AM
They've clearly established that Smokey cannot penetrate the ash.  They've shown that many times.  So I just don't see how it was tied to Dogen.  There was never anything to support that, and yet Lennon made it clear that, apart from revenge, it was the reason Sayid was supposed to kill him.  If his survival was always so imperative for everyone else's safety, why on Earth did they keep allowing Dogen to be alone with Jack, Sayid, and Hurley, etc.?  Shouldn't they have had him in the most secure location possible ever since Jacob died?  In this episode, the Others act like even bigger idiots than they ever had.  What's up with how quickly half of them changed to UnLocke's side and just left the temple?

To get back to the thread questions, we had Dogen tell us his opinion of Flocke (evil incarnate), but we still have evidence steering us both towards and away from that conclusion.  Sayid's sideways story tonight seems to have been intended to show us that you can take the torturer out of Iraq, but you can't take the torture out of the Iraqi.  In the end, Sayid turned to murderous revenge, as he always knew he would, which is why he kept Nadia at bay.  Makes us think that Sayid is evil on the inside and therefore perfect for Flocke's cause.
However, the sideways stories are what would have happened without Jacob's influence, so perhaps that Sayid is not the Sayid we have on the island.  Maybe he really is a good man, as he purported to be.  Maybe there were conversations with Flocke we didn't see (like, "What do you mean you can bring Nadia back, and do I have to not see her anymore, as was forced by Jacob unto the samurai fellow?") where Sayid became convinced that the Others were not good.

To me, it gets back to previous seasons when Smokey has "scanned" individuals and then either let them live or not.  Was he all that time looking for his own candidate?  He offed Echo, but didn't he give him a chance at first?  He didn't off John, but then later tried to drag him down into his hidey-hole and Jack saved him.  Jacob seems to kind of be a heartless bastard.  We're all over the place with good and evil.

For an episode that promised answers, we got... none!
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on March 03, 2010, 10:56:08 AM
I don't know about MIB but Sayid has something going on. The look on his face at the end of the episode said it all. Any part of him that was caring is gone for now. I think he has left the building!!
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: horseshoe_crab on March 03, 2010, 11:28:41 AM
Let's get literal.  Dogen told Sayid (paraphrasing) "If you allow him to speak to you it is already too late."  Did anyone notice that Smokie said something like "Hello Sayid." before Sayid could stab him?  What if Dogen was absolutely correct, and that stabbing Smokie through the chest would have killed him, if Sayid did it before Smokie spoke a word? 

That would be a typical Lost situation: Yes, you followed the rules - almost.  Sorry, you lose.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 03, 2010, 01:31:38 PM
Sayid is most deffinitely evil, and this is how you can tell. Not because he killed Dogen, I mean hell, Dogen tried to have Sayid killed twice already. BUT, when that filthy hippy came into the room and said, "Do you realize what you've done? He was the only thing keeping it out." Sayid does two things. The first one is that HE KILLS A COMPLETELY INNOCENT PERSON (despite the fact that he is a gross, dirty, petrulli oil smelling hippy). Second, he says, "I know" because he knows that Smokey wants to come in and kill all of the people in the temple that don't follow him. Now I know Sayid has tortured and killed in the past, but there were reasons for that; all of this death had no reason at all.

Also, think about the entire situation for a second. So, Sayid goes and stabs Locke. Locke pulls out the knife, that has NO blood on it, and proceeds to talk to Sayid about how the person in the temple is bad, and how Locke can give Sayid anything in the whole world (doesn't sound like a deal with the devil to me, how about you guys??) that he desires, all he has to do is deliver this message. Now we as the audience presume to think that the message he was suppossed to deliver was what he said about the man in the jungle and leaving the temple by sundown or you die. Now this is where my own interpretation of what is going on comes into play. It seems to me that the real message Smokey wanted Sayid to deliver was actually a direct message to Dogen, and the message was, "Haha, I turned Sayid into one of my minions and youand everyone in the temple are going to die."
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Jungle Otter on March 03, 2010, 03:35:18 PM
Sayid is the new Faust on the island (I think Ben was the first....)
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 03, 2010, 03:38:02 PM
Sayid is the new Faust on the island (I think Ben was the first....)

Oh you might hate me for this, but what does that mean??
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Jungle Otter on March 03, 2010, 03:40:22 PM
Sayid is the new Faust on the island (I think Ben was the first....)

Oh you might hate me for this, but what does that mean??

Faust is a German legend regarding an individual selling his soul to the devil for knowledge......Sayid "sold" his soul to MIB
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 03, 2010, 03:42:12 PM
Sayid is the new Faust on the island (I think Ben was the first....)

Oh you might hate me for this, but what does that mean??

Faust is a German legend regarding an individual selling his soul to the devil for knowledge......Sayid "sold" his soul to MIB
Ahhhh, gotcha. Thanks.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: zeekloveslost on March 03, 2010, 04:20:17 PM
Fwiw - Jacob always makes a point of saying "you have a choice" when trying to get someone to do something.

I find that telling someone "you have a choice" is the easiest way to manipulate them into doing exactly what you wanted to begin with :o)
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on March 03, 2010, 04:22:41 PM
Sayid is evil.  His scale was tipped the wrong way.  Has it always been like that?  Is it due to the tainted water?  
I don't think that anyone views themselves as evil even if the outsider perspective is just that.  Sayid kept saying he was a good man but we can see from his past that he wasn't.  Sure, he felt regret, I guess.  He had his good person moments like shooting himself in the leg to allow Nadia to escape.  But he does have the scales.  Were his good deeds ever enough to outweigh his bad?  
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 03, 2010, 04:49:49 PM
Sayid is evil.  His scale was tipped the wrong way.  Has it always been like that?  Is it due to the tainted water?  
I don't think that anyone views themselves as evil even if the outsider perspective is just that.  Sayid kept saying he was a good man but we can see from his past that he wasn't.  Sure, he felt regret, I guess.  He had his good person moments like shooting himself in the leg to allow Nadia to escape.  But he does have the scales.  Were his good deeds ever enough to outweigh his bad?  

I think the water has zero to do with it.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: vickilynn on March 03, 2010, 05:41:53 PM
I still don't think Sayid is "evil." He may kill people (which isn't something a normal person would do) but it is usually because that person IS "bad" or is hurting someone/something he needs to protect. I'm sure in his past, Sayid had to kill people in order to stay alive himself.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: nomteticus on March 03, 2010, 06:16:12 PM
If Sayid were not old Sayid, he wouldn't give a crap about Nadia. So I say he's not more evil now than he was when he turned on his best friend (also for Nadia!!!) or when he tortured and killed people.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: lostlady on March 03, 2010, 06:33:47 PM
MIB promised Sayid he could be with Nadia if he killed Dogan. Since Dogan wanted to kill Sayid and had tortured him Sayid killed him no problem. Point is he is doing what he is doing so he can be with Nadia again. To Sayid the others are evil including Lennon who was in on torturing Sayid.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: vickilynn on March 03, 2010, 07:05:06 PM
Remember Shakespeare's line, "Fair is foul and foul is fair."
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on March 03, 2010, 08:28:53 PM
MIB promised Sayid he could be with Nadia if he killed Dogan. Since Dogan wanted to kill Sayid and had tortured him Sayid killed him no problem. Point is he is doing what he is doing so he can be with Nadia again. To Sayid the others are evil including Lennon who was in on torturing Sayid.
He looked pretty crazed to me.  Not hesitating a split second to kill them.  Just cold.  I dunno, I guess maybe he has to enter that "zone" in order to do those things.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Bostonlost on March 03, 2010, 09:00:47 PM
With Sayid

It was as if the flash sideways was a explanation of what we were about to see..



(http://i3.6.cn/cvbnm/50/be/01/2508dacf3de8c30f2fae8188083be36a.jpg)
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: terry700 on March 03, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
Didn't Shannon die in Sayid's arms?  He loved her, couldn't that be what he wanted, "the only thing I ever wanted died in my arms"?  Isn't Shannon appearing in future episodes?  Did Nadia die in Sayid's arms?
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 03, 2010, 10:24:58 PM
Didn't Shannon die in Sayid's arms?  He loved her, couldn't that be what he wanted, "the only thing I ever wanted died in my arms"?  Isn't Shannon appearing in future episodes?  Did Nadia die in Sayid's arms?

I think that Shannon AND Nadia died in his arms. You make a good point here.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: zeekloveslost on March 03, 2010, 10:57:51 PM
Didn't Shannon die in Sayid's arms?  He loved her, couldn't that be what he wanted, "the only thing I ever wanted died in my arms"?  Isn't Shannon appearing in future episodes?  Did Nadia die in Sayid's arms?

Pretty sure only Shannon died in his arms, literally.  Nadia was hit by a car, but may have dies in his arms metaphorically.

I think that Shannon AND Nadia died in his arms. You make a good point here.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 04, 2010, 04:37:14 PM
That was disturbing, Bostonlost! LOL

Didn't Shannon die in Sayid's arms?  He loved her, couldn't that be what he wanted, "the only thing I ever wanted died in my arms"?  Isn't Shannon appearing in future episodes?  Did Nadia die in Sayid's arms?
When Sayid said that line, I remembered Nadia & Shannon & thought that Sayid meant that he wanted a love that lasts a lifetime.




Re: Sayid being evil- I saw how things played out as another shout out to Star Wars (big surprise there).  Palpatine promised Anakin that he could have the ones he loves forever, & when Anakin crossed over to the dark side, his 1st order of business was to march in & purge the Jedi Temple.  Whether or not the parallels will also include Sayid's redemption is yet to be seen!
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Bostonlost on March 05, 2010, 01:51:13 AM
That was disturbing, Bostonlost! LOL


Thanks
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Jungle Otter on March 05, 2010, 01:39:36 PM

Re: Sayid being evil- I saw how things played out as another shout out to Star Wars (big surprise there).  Palpatine promised Anakin that he could have the ones he loves forever, & when Anakin crossed over to the dark side, his 1st order of business was to march in & purge the Jedi Temple.  Whether or not the parallels will also include Sayid's redemption is yet to be seen!

Or Sayid will become the new MIB - mechanized "security system" of the island......

Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: PrincessLeia on March 05, 2010, 06:56:26 PM

Re: Sayid being evil- I saw how things played out as another shout out to Star Wars (big surprise there).  Palpatine promised Anakin that he could have the ones he loves forever, & when Anakin crossed over to the dark side, his 1st order of business was to march in & purge the Jedi Temple.  Whether or not the parallels will also include Sayid's redemption is yet to be seen!

Or Sayid will become the new MIB - mechanized "security system" of the island......


*cue Vader music*
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: nomteticus on March 08, 2010, 08:40:45 PM
To all who think Sayid became evil after the pool thing:

What makes Sayid more evil now then when he:
1. betrayed his people because of a woman
2. tortured his former mates for the chance to meet that woman again
3. turned on his friend so he could see the same woman
4. became a hitman for Ben to avenge the death of his lady friend

A lot of this would rank much higher on Dogen's evilmeter. So maybe the meter wasn't wrong, but Sayid has always been evil (as in selfish and inconsiderate to other people's lives, yet not undisturbed by his acts)
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on March 08, 2010, 09:35:34 PM
To all who think Sayid became evil after the pool thing:

What makes Sayid more evil now then when he:
1. betrayed his people because of a woman
2. tortured his former mates for the chance to meet that woman again
3. turned on his friend so he could see the same woman
4. became a hitman for Ben to avenge the death of his lady friend

A lot of this would rank much higher on Dogen's evilmeter. So maybe the meter wasn't wrong, but Sayid has always been evil (as in selfish and inconsiderate to other people's lives, yet not undisturbed by his acts)
I think this is a very big question.  Was it something on the island that tipped the scales or something from his past?  Credit where it's due- Sayid did risk everything to allow Nadia to escape.  He tried to spare his father's wrath by stepping in to kill the chicken his brother was supposed to off.  He tried to save not only his life, but the lives of those affected by Ben Linus by attempting to take (young) Ben's life.  He's done several courageous "good" acts, but who is to say how many, or how powerful a good act must be to outweigh the bad you've done?  I'm really on the fence with this one.  What tips the scales (HA HA HA!  :-\) for me is that Jacob had "Jarrah" written down.  I doubt Jacob would want a person out of balance as a candidate- and if Sayid became "evil" due to his war crimes and what not would Jacob have touched him as Nadia was hit by a car?  If if was his past that caused him to turn why would Jacob recruit a "soiled" candidate?  I think his name would have been crossed out if Jacob didn't feel he was (at the time) in balance.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: E.S.B. on March 08, 2010, 10:21:48 PM
And also remember in Through the Looking Glass when he volunteered to be one of the 3 shooters and told Jack he was more than willing to give his life if it meant everyone else could be rescued, and that they were not to wait for him under any circumstances.  Talk about sacrifice.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: LouE68 on March 08, 2010, 10:26:08 PM
To all who think Sayid became evil after the pool thing:

What makes Sayid more evil now then when he:
1. betrayed his people because of a woman
2. tortured his former mates for the chance to meet that woman again
3. turned on his friend so he could see the same woman
4. became a hitman for Ben to avenge the death of his lady friend

A lot of this would rank much higher on Dogen's evilmeter. So maybe the meter wasn't wrong, but Sayid has always been evil (as in selfish and inconsiderate to other people's lives, yet not undisturbed by his acts)
I think this is a very big question.  Was it something on the island that tipped the scales or something from his past?  Credit where it's due- Sayid did risk everything to allow Nadia to escape.  He tried to spare his father's wrath by stepping in to kill the chicken his brother was supposed to off.  He tried to save not only his life, but the lives of those affected by Ben Linus by attempting to take (young) Ben's life.  He's done several courageous "good" acts, but who is to say how many, or how powerful a good act must be to outweigh the bad you've done?  I'm really on the fence with this one.  What tips the scales (HA HA HA!  :-\) for me is that Jacob had "Jarrah" written down.  I doubt Jacob would want a person out of balance as a candidate- and if Sayid became "evil" due to his war crimes and what not would Jacob have touched him as Nadia was hit by a car?  If if was his past that caused him to turn why would Jacob recruit a "soiled" candidate?  I think his name would have been crossed out if Jacob didn't feel he was (at the time) in balance.
Very good points DMM! But I could throw in the "maybe" even though Sayid would fail the final candidate test, he can still be a candidate to perform specific task Jacob needed done. It's almost if he knew certain people are good for one thing but might fail in another area, just pawns for specific tasks.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: DirtyMaggieMae on March 08, 2010, 11:03:30 PM
To all who think Sayid became evil after the pool thing:

What makes Sayid more evil now then when he:
1. betrayed his people because of a woman
2. tortured his former mates for the chance to meet that woman again
3. turned on his friend so he could see the same woman
4. became a hitman for Ben to avenge the death of his lady friend

A lot of this would rank much higher on Dogen's evilmeter. So maybe the meter wasn't wrong, but Sayid has always been evil (as in selfish and inconsiderate to other people's lives, yet not undisturbed by his acts)
I think this is a very big question.  Was it something on the island that tipped the scales or something from his past?  Credit where it's due- Sayid did risk everything to allow Nadia to escape.  He tried to spare his father's wrath by stepping in to kill the chicken his brother was supposed to off.  He tried to save not only his life, but the lives of those affected by Ben Linus by attempting to take (young) Ben's life.  He's done several courageous "good" acts, but who is to say how many, or how powerful a good act must be to outweigh the bad you've done?  I'm really on the fence with this one.  What tips the scales (HA HA HA!  :-\) for me is that Jacob had "Jarrah" written down.  I doubt Jacob would want a person out of balance as a candidate- and if Sayid became "evil" due to his war crimes and what not would Jacob have touched him as Nadia was hit by a car?  If if was his past that caused him to turn why would Jacob recruit a "soiled" candidate?  I think his name would have been crossed out if Jacob didn't feel he was (at the time) in balance.
Very good points DMM! But I could throw in the "maybe" even though Sayid would fail the final candidate test, he can still be a candidate to perform specific task Jacob needed done. It's almost if he knew certain people are good for one thing but might fail in another area, just pawns for specific tasks.
Excellent!  Your post made me think of season one.  We had the skin and bones of a society- doctor, musician, criminal, soldier, architect, hunter, etc.  I never really thought about those roles in the context of Jacob before.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: LouE68 on March 08, 2010, 11:11:06 PM
To all who think Sayid became evil after the pool thing:

What makes Sayid more evil now then when he:
1. betrayed his people because of a woman
2. tortured his former mates for the chance to meet that woman again
3. turned on his friend so he could see the same woman
4. became a hitman for Ben to avenge the death of his lady friend

A lot of this would rank much higher on Dogen's evilmeter. So maybe the meter wasn't wrong, but Sayid has always been evil (as in selfish and inconsiderate to other people's lives, yet not undisturbed by his acts)
I think this is a very big question.  Was it something on the island that tipped the scales or something from his past?  Credit where it's due- Sayid did risk everything to allow Nadia to escape.  He tried to spare his father's wrath by stepping in to kill the chicken his brother was supposed to off.  He tried to save not only his life, but the lives of those affected by Ben Linus by attempting to take (young) Ben's life.  He's done several courageous "good" acts, but who is to say how many, or how powerful a good act must be to outweigh the bad you've done?  I'm really on the fence with this one.  What tips the scales (HA HA HA!  :-\) for me is that Jacob had "Jarrah" written down.  I doubt Jacob would want a person out of balance as a candidate- and if Sayid became "evil" due to his war crimes and what not would Jacob have touched him as Nadia was hit by a car?  If if was his past that caused him to turn why would Jacob recruit a "soiled" candidate?  I think his name would have been crossed out if Jacob didn't feel he was (at the time) in balance.
Very good points DMM! But I could throw in the "maybe" even though Sayid would fail the final candidate test, he can still be a candidate to perform specific task Jacob needed done. It's almost if he knew certain people are good for one thing but might fail in another area, just pawns for specific tasks.
Excellent!  Your post made me think of season one.  We had the skin and bones of a society- doctor, musician, criminal, soldier, architect, hunter, etc.  I never really thought about those roles in the context of Jacob before.
...I love this show!!! just when you think you figure something out you see something else LOL another good point DMM!
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: Jungle Otter on March 08, 2010, 11:46:45 PM
  If if was his past that caused him to turn why would Jacob recruit a "soiled" candidate?  I think his name would have been crossed out if Jacob didn't feel he was (at the time) in balance.

To be truly good, one must face the evil within. It is who is given control that determines the "balance".....perhaps Sayid hadn't tipped yet. Spirit Jacob may be now crossing his name off....

Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 09, 2010, 09:51:59 AM
To all who think Sayid became evil after the pool thing:

What makes Sayid more evil now then when he:
1. betrayed his people because of a woman
2. tortured his former mates for the chance to meet that woman again
3. turned on his friend so he could see the same woman
4. became a hitman for Ben to avenge the death of his lady friend

A lot of this would rank much higher on Dogen's evilmeter. So maybe the meter wasn't wrong, but Sayid has always been evil (as in selfish and inconsiderate to other people's lives, yet not undisturbed by his acts)

What makes him more evil now then when he did these things?? Well, those things you listed, I don't see as being evil acts really. #1 wasn't him betraying his people, it was Sayid disobeying an order from a superior officer to help the woman he loved escape being murdered. #2 was him trying to save the life of another person. Yes Sayid tortured that guy, but it was all in the hope that the American was alive so that Sayid could find Nadia. #3 once again was him saving lives. If you would have preferred that he let his friend blow himself up as well as a bunch of innocent people, then I really have to question who the evil one really is. As for #4, well, I can't say that is a completely "good" act, but it isn't completely "evil" either. These people (as far as we know) were in cahoots with Widmore and killed Sayid's wife (not his lady friend, I mean at the very least she would be his special lady), how can you blame him for wanting to get revenge for taking someone from him that he has known his entire life, and just found?? His behavior in the temple as far as I was concerned is far more "evil". He kills the one person that was able to keep the smoke monster out of the temple. He then kills another person, you know, just because, and he does all of this knowing that the smoke monster is going to come through and kill all of the people that don't side with him. That to me is far more evil then anything on the list you provided. In my opinion anyway.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: opgelost on March 09, 2010, 02:32:24 PM
To all who think Sayid became evil after the pool thing:

What makes Sayid more evil now then when he:
1. betrayed his people because of a woman
2. tortured his former mates for the chance to meet that woman again
3. turned on his friend so he could see the same woman
4. became a hitman for Ben to avenge the death of his lady friend

A lot of this would rank much higher on Dogen's evilmeter. So maybe the meter wasn't wrong, but Sayid has always been evil (as in selfish and inconsiderate to other people's lives, yet not undisturbed by his acts)

In the original LAXtimeline he didn't marry Nadia, because he thought she didn't deserve him for what he did in the past.
I don't know about the first two points, but the second two he didn't do in the original timeline.
1 & 2 Kelvin made him that way.
3 the CIA pushed him, his friend dead or Nadia dead.
4 somebody made him do that by killing Nadia and sending Ben.

The basic personalities are the same in both timelines, Kate will always run, Jack will always fix, Locke is angry, Sayid is capable to kill.
But Jacob/MIB used that characters to let them make the wrong choices.
Sayid is not evil, he has the capacity to be and that is used to make him what he is in islandtimeline, using the woman he loves.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: zeekloveslost on March 09, 2010, 04:57:38 PM
That to me is far more evil then anything on the list you provided. In my opinion anyway.

Well, maybe, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

(I had to go there after your Lebowski reference)
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 09, 2010, 08:21:51 PM
That to me is far more evil then anything on the list you provided. In my opinion anyway.

Well, maybe, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

(I had to go there after your Lebowski reference)

Keep em coming. You an Achiever, or FU@%!#& Amateur??
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: nomteticus on March 09, 2010, 09:01:36 PM
That to me is far more evil then anything on the list you provided. In my opinion anyway.

Well, maybe, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

(I had to go there after your Lebowski reference)

"Lady friend" was also an obscure Lebowski reference.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 10, 2010, 10:39:26 AM
That to me is far more evil then anything on the list you provided. In my opinion anyway.

Well, maybe, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

(I had to go there after your Lebowski reference)

"Lady friend" was also an obscure Lebowski reference.

I caught it, that's why I dropped mine in.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: ozman776 on March 10, 2010, 01:03:53 PM
the one idea that pops up when i try and simplify all of this is "Trading places" and the $1 bet by randy & morty DUKE...

Given a life thats poor or violent or unloved etc... could it change if the right circumstances were offered..

If kate was never abused
If sayid was never forced to torture
If jack had a loving home
If ben wasnt Blamed
If Sawyers family wasnt conned
etc...


Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 10, 2010, 01:57:44 PM
the one idea that pops up when i try and simplify all of this is "Trading places" and the $1 bet by randy & morty DUKE...

Given a life thats poor or violent or unloved etc... could it change if the right circumstances were offered..

If kate was never abused
If sayid was never forced to torture
If jack had a loving home
If ben wasnt Blamed
If Sawyers family wasnt conned
etc...




HUH??
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: ozman776 on March 11, 2010, 11:11:45 PM
the one idea that pops up when i try and simplify all of this is "Trading places" and the $1 bet by randy & morty DUKE...

Given a life thats poor or violent or unloved etc... could it change if the right circumstances were offered..

If kate was never abused
If sayid was never forced to torture
If jack had a loving home
If ben wasnt Blamed
If Sawyers family wasnt conned
etc...




HUH??

sorry was late and i was in a rush to get ready for work..... my point being as similar the the "dukes" logic in trading places eddie murphy was a product of his environment...similar to sayid being raised in a war torn nation and drafted into the republican gaurd out of no choice of his own... then being  "used" as a torturer which led him to being bribed into breaking a sleeper cell and later recruited by ben to assasinate those who he is told are associated with the man who ordered the hit on nadia.... meaning he wasnt bad on his own, he was bred into it....

but given the right conditions he would have turned out very differently....

Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: BobBX542 on March 11, 2010, 11:43:41 PM
Okay, I see what you're saying now, but I think that was the whole point of the flashbacks in the first seasons. We saw how they were, and why they were like that. It's the oldest arguement on the books, nature vs. nurture.
Title: Re: Sayid: Evil? ALSO MIB?
Post by: ozman776 on March 11, 2010, 11:50:15 PM
yeah i was just putting a twist on it, with a great flick although it was meant as a comedy... the true underlying of trading places was that anyone can be anything if they are given small hurdles to overcome... but when brick walls are placed in front, or in some peoples cases including our losties .."DETOUR SIGNS"... i think we can see things differently if we are the ones looking in on someones life , rather than actually living it....