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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x02 => Topic started by: Creflo on February 09, 2010, 10:32:20 PM

Title: infection = possession
Post by: Creflo on February 09, 2010, 10:32:20 PM
...by ______?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: taki1379 on February 09, 2010, 10:40:59 PM
It looked like he blew some Ashe over sayid. At first I thought he might be smokie
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: lostjava on February 09, 2010, 10:51:10 PM
I think they suspect it's smokey. 

But it might be Jacob.  Since Jacob did say that Sayid must survive. 
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: taki1379 on February 09, 2010, 10:52:29 PM
So are we to believe that the pill was poisen? 
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: jamesl on February 09, 2010, 10:53:05 PM
yeah, ash
I wondered about that
was it supposed to stick ? remove what's left of the gunshot wound ? cause him pain like alcohol on a wound ?

I thought he passed the test by being injured and not turning into a smokey
I was really suprised when they said he failed
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: lostfromthestart on February 09, 2010, 11:02:49 PM
yeah, ash
I wondered about that
was it supposed to stick ? remove what's left of the gunshot wound ? cause him pain like alcohol on a wound ?

I thought he passed the test by being injured and not turning into a smokey
I was really suprised when they said he failed
That's what I thought, but apparently he failed the test.  Hmmmm
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: vickilynn on February 09, 2010, 11:03:19 PM
yeah, ash
I wondered about that
was it supposed to stick ? remove what's left of the gunshot wound ? cause him pain like alcohol on a wound ?

I thought he passed the test by being injured and not turning into a smokey
I was really suprised when they said he failed

Seems like Smokey can't tolerate the ash, so I thought that was just part of the test to see if Sayid could
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: taki1379 on February 09, 2010, 11:06:07 PM
Apparently he is turning evil
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2010, 11:09:10 PM
It appears to me that they are comparing Sayid and Claire to Danielle not to smokie. That he is going loony like Danielle did.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: jamesl on February 09, 2010, 11:10:16 PM
It appears to me that they are comparing Sayid and Claire to Danielle not to smokie. That he is going loony like Danielle did.

ah, very good point
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: JMart on February 09, 2010, 11:14:11 PM
It appears to me that they are comparing Sayid and Claire to Danielle not to smokie. That he is going loony like Danielle did.

i dont think so.. danielle went loony bc of her circumstances, not dying and coming back to life.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: taki1379 on February 09, 2010, 11:18:10 PM
So did Claire die, come back to life and then get "infected"?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2010, 11:21:35 PM
Not sure, She disappeared after the house was blown up. But she was not brought to the temple as far as we know, so that is different than Sayid.


We have seen her with Christian, which appears to be connected to smokie. I don't know. I am confused.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: taki1379 on February 09, 2010, 11:24:08 PM
I like the promos that say " the time for questions is over".
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: hyperform on February 09, 2010, 11:24:13 PM
or did they dunk her in the iced tea spring and die too
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: jugdish on February 09, 2010, 11:27:38 PM
I like the promos that say " the time for questions is over".

But when when!!!
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: DizzyIzzy on February 09, 2010, 11:28:05 PM
I thought it was a comparision to Danielle's party getting the sickness...did Danielle have it too? Or just gone crazy after all those years hiding on an island.  Yet, incredible torturing pain? Do bring out something?

And go Jack for swollowing the pill! Who do you trust?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: taki1379 on February 09, 2010, 11:30:02 PM
I like the promos that say " the time for questions is over".

But when when!!!


The finale

Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: JMart on February 09, 2010, 11:31:18 PM
lol answers will obviously come. some people are so impatient.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: louisianagirl76l on February 09, 2010, 11:31:57 PM
I thought it was a comparision to Danielle's party getting the sickness...did Danielle have it too? Or just gone crazy after all those years hiding on an island.  Yet, incredible torturing pain? Do bring out something?

And go Jack for swollowing the pill! Who do you trust?

I think the same ....that they are talking about the same thing that happened to Danielle's people..same reason why Desmond was told to wear that hazmat looking suit if he was to ever leave the hatch.....Something in the jungle infects/claims/whatever them.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LouE68 on February 09, 2010, 11:33:35 PM
I thought it was a comparision to Danielle's party getting the sickness...did Danielle have it too? Or just gone crazy after all those years hiding on an island.  Yet, incredible torturing pain? Do bring out something?

And go Jack for swollowing the pill! Who do you trust?
Yes I agree, the guys in Danielles party were infected, they saw the darkness...somehow christian fits in with it too and Claire now...when was Sayid exposed to this darkness tho, was it in the water? Eko was killed because initially he was going to be abducted, I feel to the others, smokie saw he wasnt going to be turned, so he killed him...
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Gar O Mac on February 09, 2010, 11:38:52 PM
I like the promos that say " the time for questions is over".

But when when!!!

The answers will come when they come Juggy. You didn't think they would change that just because it's the last season did you?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: vickilynn on February 10, 2010, 09:19:45 AM
I don't think Danielle was infected; she was just a bit loony from the stress of her existence. I'm just wondering if the cloudy water caused  Sayid to become infected. Maybe something "infected" the water - which is why his healing was delayed - and it went in through his wound? Maybe Dogan is lying, and Sayid is NOT infected.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Suzanne4au2 on February 10, 2010, 09:25:17 AM
If Sayid is "infected" then I think they mean like the members of Danielle's team. I don't think Danielle was "infected". She was just messed up from having everything taken from her. I hope Claire is only messed up too. It seems like this "infection" takes place after people are put in the spring in the Temple. SO, are the Others causing it??
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Madam P on February 10, 2010, 09:29:18 AM
It reminds me of Stephen King's "Pet Sematary."  You could bury your dead in that Indian burial ground if you want, and sure, they'd come back to life.  But you really don't want to be around them after they come back... they're different... they're "infected."  So you end up re-killing them anyway.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: grizn0 on February 10, 2010, 09:56:20 AM
The only thing I'm confused about is how Dogan knew Claire AND that she was Jack's sister when he seemed to not know who Jack was when they first came to the Temple. I guess it is possible that he had been told about Jack but didn't know what he looked like. Then when he read the name on Jacob's list he couldn't have been like "wow, good thing I didn't kill them cause that's Jack Sheppard." or something like that. In any case he sure doesn't want Jack to die now.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Madam P on February 10, 2010, 10:07:00 AM
I was wondering the same thing in the Claire=Rousseau thread, grizno.  Maybe Dogan has contact with Christian?

Yeah, he really almost jumped out of his skin when Jack took that pill, didn't he?  But I'm still not convinced it's "poison."   I have no idea what it is, but why would they go through all that to kill Sayid?  Why wouldn't they just shoot him or whatever?  They had him right there on the table hooked up to electrodes...

Could it be related to the reason why MIB couldn't kill Jacob?  It has to be a free-will kind of thing?  Sayid has to essentially kill himself?  Except... it wouldn't be being done "knowingly";  if it worked, it would be a trick because both Jack and Sayid think somehow the pill would be helpful.

Grrrrrr... this show drives me nuts.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 10, 2010, 12:20:02 PM
I've assumed that MIB has infected Claire, as Claire was with Christian in the cabin and I think we can say Christian was MIB.

That being said, I'm also saying that when Jacob met Hurley at the Van and told him to take him to the temple.  That wasn't Jacob, but it was MIB taking Jacob's form to get Sayid to the temple.  It was at that point he infected Sayid and Sayid was going to be his in at the temple.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: lostfromthestart on February 10, 2010, 12:32:46 PM
So maybe Jacob was really MIB when we thought he was Jacob.  And MIB could have really been Jacob when MIB was being Jacob.  And now MIB is being Locke while Locke is being dead.  But Richard was Richard as Richard appears in any time period, but now he is either knocked out or dead, and being carried away by Locke who is really MIB, not to be confused with Jacob who might appear to be MIB but is not.

OK, I got it.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: zeekloveslost on February 10, 2010, 12:45:26 PM
If Sayid failed the test, then what does passing look like?  Feeling no pain in reaction to the electricity and hot poker?  Who would pass that kind of test?

I think these are important questions
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: sillysab on February 10, 2010, 12:52:28 PM
It appears to me that they are comparing Sayid and Claire to Danielle not to smokie. That he is going loony like Danielle did.
YES! I think the trap that we saw in the jungle was Claire's, similar to what Danielle would have created though... Claire gave birth on the island and so did Danielle, another parallel. I actually think that Ben may have saved Alex from getting infected since we know that this darkness/infection can spread and the only way to stop it it seems is to kill the infected. All the french people became infected, and I think had Alex stayed with her mother, she would have too. The others are all about preventing the infection (i.e. why Ben took Alex and why they protect children in general perhaps), and I also think that it has something to do with MIB/smokie, that is the evil on the island... again good and evil theme.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: sillysab on February 10, 2010, 12:55:30 PM
If Sayid is "infected" then I think they mean like the members of Danielle's team. I don't think Danielle was "infected". She was just messed up from having everything taken from her. I hope Claire is only messed up too. It seems like this "infection" takes place after people are put in the spring in the Temple. SO, are the Others causing it??
NO... the spring saved Ben - he was taken there after Sayid shot him, and Kate and Sawyer brought him to the others to be saved. I do not think Ben was infected or the others would have killed him to keep the infection from spreading
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: sillysab on February 10, 2010, 12:57:01 PM
I've assumed that MIB has infected Claire, as Claire was with Christian in the cabin and I think we can say Christian was MIB.

That being said, I'm also saying that when Jacob met Hurley at the Van and told him to take him to the temple.  That wasn't Jacob, but it was MIB taking Jacob's form to get Sayid to the temple.  It was at that point he infected Sayid and Sayid was going to be his in at the temple.
Like this!
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: vickilynn on February 10, 2010, 12:58:24 PM
If Sayid failed the test, then what does passing look like?  Feeling no pain in reaction to the electricity and hot poker?  Who would pass that kind of test?

I think these are important questions
Sort of like the witch tests: you just can't win!
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MachThree on February 10, 2010, 01:00:53 PM
I think the process of being reanimated once dead only happens via the infection / claiming.  I think we have at least two, and maybe as many as three, examples of this....

a) Claire - she's in a house that gets hit by rocket, and yet she's up and about a few minutes later.  She seems dazed and a little dissoriented.  But she seems "alive" to all appearances, except to the way she seems to Miles, who seems to think she's not alive, or is not entirely convinced that she is.  Not long after (that same night, I think) she vanishes, and we don't see her again until the Locke/Christian/Claire cabin scene.

b)  Sayid - appears to die, either as a direct result from the gunshot wound, or from downing in the spring.  A few minutes later, he's awake - seems dazed and disoriented a little, but otherwise appears fine.  Once again, Miles looks at him oddly, at least a couple of times.  It also seems, judging by Dogen's proclimation that Sayid died, that the spring failed to have the desired effect on Sayid.  I note also Dogen, Translator Man, and all of the other Others seemed quite surprised to find Sayid up and about, after the spring failed to work its magic. 

c) Christian Shepard - on this I am not as convinced, but I think its still a possibility.  We know that the coffin is empty when its found on the island.  So was Christian re-animated in the same way that Sayid and Claire seem to have been, or did his body vanish through some other means, and when we've seen him its been Smokey taking on his form more directly, in the same way Smokey has taken on the form of Locke?    

In any case, what's the link between these three people?  Well, IMHO, it seems to me that Christian, on the Island, has acted more as an agent of Smokey, as opposed to an agent of Jacob as he's claimed to be.  Claire is seen hanging out with Christian.  Dogen claims Claire is infected (then we see she's gone "Rousso" on us), and he also claims Sayid was infected.  At at minimum, I think, Claire and Sayid, and possibly Christian, were dead and brought back to life the same way.

As for Ruosso herself - I don't think we ever saw her "die", yet she seemed infected(?) perhaps.  Which might mean she really was just loopy due to the stress of living alone on the Island and being paranoid of Ben or some of the other Others coming back for her.  Or maybe we just never saw her death, it hasn't been shown to us yet.  I mean, we know nothing of what happened to her between the time Ben took Alex and when she first meets Sayid following the crash, back in Season 1.

By the way, the spring doesn't seem that wonderful - we know it seemed to rob Ben of his innocence and change him, and Dogen spoke of "risks" in using it on Sayid.   
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Madam P on February 10, 2010, 01:14:52 PM
So maybe Jacob was really MIB when we thought he was Jacob.  And MIB could have really been Jacob when MIB was being Jacob.  And now MIB is being Locke while Locke is being dead.  But Richard was Richard as Richard appears in any time period, but now he is either knocked out or dead, and being carried away by Locke who is really MIB, not to be confused with Jacob who might appear to be MIB but is not.

OK, I got it.

LOL!   :D

I'm not at all convinced that Christian was the MIB. 

I think the process of being reanimated once dead only happens via the infection / claiming.

a) Claire - she's in a house that gets hit by rocket, and yet she's up and about a few minutes later.  She seems dazed and a little dissoriented.  But she seems "alive" to all appearances, except to the way she seems to Miles, who seems to think she's not alive, or is not entirely convinced that she is.  Not long after (that same night, I think) she vanishes, and we don't see her again until the Locke/Christian/Claire cabin scene.

      

Seems accurate... but Claire never went into the spring as far as we know.  Certainly she didn't go in it in the time between the house being blown up by a rocket and her walking out of it looking dazed.  Could it be that she was "innoculated" with spring water back when Ethan gave her that injection?  Then maybe the "infection/claiming" doesn't actually happen until you really die -- in Claire's case, when the house got hit by the rocket.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MachThree on February 10, 2010, 01:22:54 PM
I think the process of being reanimated once dead only happens via the infection / claiming.

a) Claire - she's in a house that gets hit by rocket, and yet she's up and about a few minutes later.  She seems dazed and a little dissoriented.  But she seems "alive" to all appearances, except to the way she seems to Miles, who seems to think she's not alive, or is not entirely convinced that she is.  Not long after (that same night, I think) she vanishes, and we don't see her again until the Locke/Christian/Claire cabin scene.

      

Seems accurate... but Claire never went into the spring as far as we know.  Certainly she didn't go in it in the time between the house being blown up by a rocket and her walking out of it looking dazed.  Could it be that she was "innoculated" with spring water back when Ethan gave her that injection?  Then maybe the "infection/claiming" doesn't actually happen until you really die -- in Claire's case, when the house got hit by the rocket.

First, I don't think the spring has anything to do with the infection process.  I think the spring can heal you if you're injured, but not ressurect you if you're dead (note: Dogen and all of the other Others are surprised to find Sayid up and about after they thought he died - clearly they don't believe the spring can resurrect you).  The process of dying and being reanimated is, I believe, unrelated to the spring.  What I believe happened is that the Spring failed to save Sayid (perhaps related to the water being discolored).  Sayid died.  Then, somehow, whatever brought him back to life is related to the infection.

Yes, I agree, Claire almost certainly didn't go into the spring between the time she died in the rocket attack and the time she was up and about in the house where everyone was holed up from the mercenaries.  After the attack, Sawyer swoops in and carries her off right away.  I don't see how she could have gone to the spring.  But I don't believe the infection process is related to the spring at all.

As far as the injections Claire was given by Ethan, IIRC, during season 3, Ben & Co. trigger some latent "poison" or biological agent that they gave to Claire when she was their captive, in order to allow Juliet to "save" Claire, thereby gaining the castaway's trust.  As far as I can tell, that's what Ethan injected Claire with, nothing more.   
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Madam P on February 10, 2010, 01:28:35 PM
Then how do they get "infected?"
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Adriana on February 10, 2010, 01:37:59 PM
If Sayid failed the test, then what does passing look like?  Feeling no pain in reaction to the electricity and hot poker?  Who would pass that kind of test?

I think these are important questions

I think they would expect a normal person to writhe in pain and scream and shout.  But I think Dogan thought Sayid/MIB is faking.  I'm puzzled as to why the ash had no effect though.  That seems to be something that MIB couldn't fake not having an aversion to. (Like if a demon is possessing someone's body, they could definitely fake pain ... but if a priest throws holy water on them, can they fake NOT feeling pain?)  I think the ash was kind of like the holy water in this case ... and if Sayid/MIB was faking, then I guess he was actually in a lot of pain when he blew the ash on him.  Good job hiding it though ...

If Sayid is "infected" then I think they mean like the members of Danielle's team. I don't think Danielle was "infected". She was just messed up from having everything taken from her. I hope Claire is only messed up too. It seems like this "infection" takes place after people are put in the spring in the Temple. SO, are the Others causing it??
NO... the spring saved Ben - he was taken there after Sayid shot him, and Kate and Sawyer brought him to the others to be saved. I do not think Ben was infected or the others would have killed him to keep the infection from spreading

I don't think the spring CAUSED Sayid to be infected.  I think the spring didn't work, and Sayid died.  Dogan seemed pretty resigned to this possibility (when his hand didn't heal, I don't think he was 100% certain it would bring Sayid back ... but he had to *try*).  What really shocked him is when Sayid did wake up, alive.  And I think that's when he started thinking that the MIB took dead-Sayid as its chance to inhabit another body.


What really grinds my gears is what other people have also asked.  HOW did the Sayid's body become infected?  Does the MIB just *sense* the appearance of a dead body anywhere on the island and can get to it in record time? (From the time they pulled Sayid out of the water until the time he sat up, it was only about 3 minutes).

Also -- are we all for the most part on the same page that all of the "infected" (Rousseau's team, Claire, Jack's Dad) are being inhabited by Smokey/MIB, and that they can be inhabited at the same time?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 10, 2010, 01:40:37 PM
If anyone remembers Desmond was taking a vacinne so not to get infected.  Remember the episode with make your own kind of music.  Could they have knows, DI that this was something they needed to do in order to avoid the infection changing them.  Also if the infection,  uses dead bodies, is that the other reason the others were so adamant about disposing of them.    


Second Danielle refers to the "infection" around the black rock.
She also says her team was infected.
Now Dogem (that is the correct spelling I did check) said that Sayid was infected similar to Claire.



So if Smokey was at the beach killing Bram and then cleaning up and meeting with Richard on the beach chances are he was not infecting the water.
Also Sayid may have been infected prior to his death.  I say this because we pretty much can conclude that Claire was not dead and Creepy Christian came to her in the night.

We also know it was not Jacob in Sayid.

I know i have said that Smokey was taking over bodies to do his bidding, but I have also though there is a third "entity" that has been plauging the island.  I still am not convinced that MIB or Jacob were in that cabin.  


just because Smokey wreaked Havoc on Danielles team does not mean it infected her team, something else could have infected the team.  

Whatever it is , it alters the behavior of the person.    I do not believe Danielle was infected for whatever reason.  

Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: opgelost on February 10, 2010, 03:59:28 PM
I think the process of being reanimated once dead only happens via the infection / claiming.

a) Claire - she's in a house that gets hit by rocket, and yet she's up and about a few minutes later.  She seems dazed and a little dissoriented.  But she seems "alive" to all appearances, except to the way she seems to Miles, who seems to think she's not alive, or is not entirely convinced that she is.  Not long after (that same night, I think) she vanishes, and we don't see her again until the Locke/Christian/Claire cabin scene.
      

Seems accurate... but Claire never went into the spring as far as we know.  Certainly she didn't go in it in the time between the house being blown up by a rocket and her walking out of it looking dazed.  Could it be that she was "innoculated" with spring water back when Ethan gave her that injection?  Then maybe the "infection/claiming" doesn't actually happen until you really die -- in Claire's case, when the house got hit by the rocket.

First, I don't think the spring has anything to do with the infection process.  I think the spring can heal you if you're injured, but not ressurect you if you're dead (note: Dogen and all of the other Others are surprised to find Sayid up and about after they thought he died - clearly they don't believe the spring can resurrect you).  The process of dying and being reanimated is, I believe, unrelated to the spring.  What I believe happened is that the Spring failed to save Sayid (perhaps related to the water being discolored).  Sayid died.  Then, somehow, whatever brought him back to life is related to the infection.

Yes, I agree, Claire almost certainly didn't go into the spring between the time she died in the rocket attack and the time she was up and about in the house where everyone was holed up from the mercenaries.  After the attack, Sawyer swoops in and carries her off right away.  I don't see how she could have gone to the spring.  But I don't believe the infection process is related to the spring at all.

As far as the injections Claire was given by Ethan, IIRC, during season 3, Ben & Co. trigger some latent "poison" or biological agent that they gave to Claire when she was their captive, in order to allow Juliet to "save" Claire, thereby gaining the castaway's trust.  As far as I can tell, that's what Ethan injected Claire with, nothing more.   

I agree. It affects people who died and didn't get burried or burned, like Rousseau's team, Alex, Christian, Locke, Claire, Yemi and now Sayid. It has nothing to do with the water. The water was for healing and they needed to save Sayid or they all would be in trouble.
The water didn't heal him, he died, so they are in trouble.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 10, 2010, 04:04:27 PM
I may be confusing things here but the infection is in living people. 


Smokey used Alex's image to speak to Ben - Alex was not infected
Smokey used Yemi's image to speak to Eko - Yemi was long dead on that plane

I do agree and have posted such that the bodies had to be removed/buried/burned/zapped to another dimension so they could not be used by smokey or this other thing. 
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: opgelost on February 10, 2010, 04:11:19 PM
Are it living people?
Claire died in the explossion, Sayid died last episode, Rousseau's team went into Smokey's hole,
I don't know if they died.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 10, 2010, 04:17:50 PM
I'm not at all convinced that Christian was the MIB.

I think that chronologically, the first time we see undead-Christian is in that mobisode, when he tells Vincent to go and wake Jack up, because "he has work to do", just after the crash.

I've lost my train of thought again! Ugh!!!
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 10, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
OPG - I never believed Claire died in the explosion if she did then the infection got her and resurected her immediately.

Richard said no one dead has ever come back to life.  So this is a confusing point here. As for Sayid I am not convinced he was "dead".

Miles was asking to many questions which leads to me wonder if the infection got him before his bath

-MB - yes we see the image of Christian there....
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 10, 2010, 04:20:28 PM
I may be confusing things here but the infection is in living people. 


Smokey used Alex's image to speak to Ben - Alex was not infected
Smokey used Yemi's image to speak to Eko - Yemi was long dead on that plane

I do agree and have posted such that the bodies had to be removed/buried/burned/zapped to another dimension so they could not be used by smokey or this other thing. 

I totally agree, there are two teams:

Team infected:

Sayid and Claire

Team Shapeshift:

Christian, Locke, Yemi and Alex...
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 10, 2010, 04:22:21 PM
I think they get infected just before they die.  The explosion happened to Claire and Christian scooped her from the jungle before she died and that's when she got infected.  I believe Sayid got infected at the van before they went to the temple.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 10, 2010, 04:23:37 PM
I think they get infected just before they die.  The explosion happened to Claire and Christian scooped her from the jungle before she died and that's when she got infected.  I believe Sayid got infected at the van before they went to the temple.

Okay that is what I was trying to get at if they died then how did it happen.
BUT what about Danielles team they were not dead that we knew of
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MachThree on February 10, 2010, 04:29:13 PM
OPG - I never believed Claire died in the explosion if she did then the infection got her and resurected her immediately.

Richard said no one dead has ever come back to life.  So this is a confusing point here. As for Sayid I am not convinced he was "dead".

Miles was asking to many questions which leads to me wonder if the infection got him before his bath

-MB - yes we see the image of Christian there....

But we have the great, all seeing (when it comes to dead people) oracle named Miles.  Ordinarily I wouldn't put too much faith in an offhanded remark, or in a glance, but this is Lost after all.  The details are everything.

Claire's house was hit by a rocket.  She should have died.  He who communicates with the dead (Miles) seems to think Claire is no longer among the living right after the rocket attack.  

As for Sayid - Dogen says he's dead, Jack ( a doctor) seems quite convinced of this as well.  A few minutes later he's up and about.  Meanwhile, Miles is looking and acting as if something ain't right.

So, as far as I can see, both Claire and Sayid have died and have been reanimated.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 10, 2010, 04:30:37 PM
I think they get infected just before they die.  The explosion happened to Claire and Christian scooped her from the jungle before she died and that's when she got infected.  I believe Sayid got infected at the van before they went to the temple.

Okay that is what I was trying to get at if they died then how did it happen.
BUT what about Danielles team they were not dead that we knew of

Apparently the producers have said that there won't be resurrection...I don't think they actually died...

The french team could have been beaten up by smokey and then infected in the hole...
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 10, 2010, 04:32:05 PM
If anyone remembers Desmond was taking a vacinne so not to get infected.  Remember the episode with make your own kind of music.  Could they have knows, DI that this was something they needed to do in order to avoid the infection changing them.  Also if the infection,  uses dead bodies, is that the other reason the others were so adamant about disposing of them.

There seems to be no cure to the "infection" Dogan diagnosed - hence administering poison. So, Desmond's self-vaccinations were either a placebo administered by the D.I. (as another weird psyche experiment), or they did something else (my guess is that they kept his time-tripping abilities docile).

It wasn't just The Others whom were so keen on disposing of dead bodies. Remember when Dr. Chang wanted that dead DHARMA workman's body delivering to The Temple?

There's always been something fishy about dead bodies on The Island. Remember how the ground had seemed to absorb Rousseau and Karl's corpses? Very freaky.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 10, 2010, 04:34:51 PM
Claire's house was hit by a rocket.  She should have died.

Was she shown at floor level? I can't remember... Perhaps the house had a basement and she was trapped in the basement until the fire from the explosion died down.

I really don't think that Cabin-Bonged-Claire was the same Claire we just saw with the rifle.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MachThree on February 10, 2010, 04:43:50 PM
Claire's house was hit by a rocket.  She should have died.

Was she shown at floor level? I can't remember... Perhaps the house had a basement and she was trapped in the basement until the fire from the explosion died down.

I really don't think that Cabin-Bonged-Claire was the same Claire we just saw with the rifle.

I guess we don't see where in the house Claire was before it was hit.  And at least some of the Dharma houses have basements (Ben goes down to his to summon Smokey, twice, and Jack/Sayid re-inter Dharmaville with the Jughead core through the basement of one of the houses.)  But Sawyer does find her at ground level after the explosion, so I was not under the impression she was in the basement at the time it happened.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: misseko815 on February 10, 2010, 04:44:23 PM
Claire's house was hit by a rocket.  She should have died.

Was she shown at floor level? I can't remember... Perhaps the house had a basement and she was trapped in the basement until the fire from the explosion died down.

I really don't think that Cabin-Bonged-Claire was the same Claire we just saw with the rifle.
I love the phrase "cabin-bonged-claire"!!!
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Adriana on February 10, 2010, 04:53:52 PM
Are it living people?
Claire died in the explossion, Sayid died last episode, Rousseau's team went into Smokey's hole,
I don't know if they died.

That's an excellent point. Very likely that Smokey killed the french team under the wall, then took possession of their bodies.  The theory I think I'm purporting is that Smokey/MIB can take possession of dead bodies (The French Team, Claire, Christian, and now Sayid) AND also can imitate those already dead (John Locke, Alex, Yemi).  

That just seems the best way to resolve this -- that Smokey/MIB/the infection are all one and the same.  Otherwise, we'd have to make a clear distinction between "the sickness/infection" and Smokey/MIB as two distinctly separate entitites.


Which remind me ... What about Kate's horse?!
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 10, 2010, 04:58:11 PM
But if they're dead when he takes possesion of them, why can't he just shapeshift into them once they're dead?

I'm thinking just as they're on the brink of dying he swoops in and takes over their lifeforce...

Miles really needs to get talking...
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 10, 2010, 05:09:53 PM
Which remind me ... What about Kate's horse?!

Oh. I've got a HUGE theory about everything. I'm hoping to catch-up on all the current posts and type something up tonight.

It's a bitch being in the U.K. and having to watch a day later, after "obtaining" the latest episode.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: opgelost on February 10, 2010, 05:15:11 PM
Rose died too, and Charlie and Mikhail died twice.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Adriana on February 10, 2010, 05:21:35 PM
Rose died too, and Charlie and Mikhail died twice.

When did Rose die??  And Charlie only died once -- the rest of his appearance were visions.  (I don't think they're going to mix Charlie up in this.)

Mikhail died like 700 times.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: opgelost on February 10, 2010, 05:25:23 PM
Rose died after the planecrash, Jack brought her back to life.
Charlie was hung by Ethan and looked really dead. Jack brought him back to life too.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 10, 2010, 05:40:38 PM
If anyone remembers Desmond was taking a vacinne so not to get infected.  Remember the episode with make your own kind of music.  Could they have knows, DI that this was something they needed to do in order to avoid the infection changing them.  Also if the infection,  uses dead bodies, is that the other reason the others were so adamant about disposing of them.

There seems to be no cure to the "infection" Dogan diagnosed - hence administering poison. So, Desmond's self-vaccinations were either a placebo administered by the D.I. (as another weird psyche experiment), or they did something else (my guess is that they kept his time-tripping abilities docile).

It wasn't just The Others whom were so keen on disposing of dead bodies. Remember when Dr. Chang wanted that dead DHARMA workman's body delivering to The Temple?

There's always been something fishy about dead bodies on The Island. Remember how the ground had seemed to absorb Rousseau and Karl's corpses? Very freaky.

Correct I agree with Dr. Chang didn't I mention that about sending off into space.

Well it cold be poison for the thing inside the bodies and again neither of these folks died.  Who knows
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 10, 2010, 05:49:10 PM
Rose was passed out- I do not believe she was officially dead and the Damon and Carlton had a board of who was alive and dead and I know that Claire was on the living side.  So I will hold tight that she didn't die - unless they take her being "infected" as living.

And  yes, Rose, Charlie, libby, Ana, Eko are not involved in this. 

There is a specific reason for Claire.

Mango spill like to hear this
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 10, 2010, 07:07:47 PM
Mango spill like to hear this

I went off on a tangent, so posted in the Theories & Speculation section:
http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php/topic,10278.0.html
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: westy185 on February 10, 2010, 07:32:39 PM
MachThree, IMHO, is right. But I want to explore this a bit more.

I think timing has a lot to do with this. Two types of possessions of the dead are occurring (I'm not as certain as I sound, but I'm going to state this emphatically anyway). Smokey is doing most, if not all, of the possessions and some people are claimed BEFORE they die.

Type 1 possession: Smokey is using the body of a dead person and it has nothing to do, really, with that person. Alex, Yemi, and Locke are examples - probably Christian (though Christian bothers me because he seems to have no corporeal form like these others). These possessed bodies don't seem to perform independently of Smokey/MIB. Who they were is immaterial, now they are dead bodies on the Island. Yemi was shot on the tarmac and probably was dead before his plane crashed, Locke died in LA, Alex died an Other - unclaimed by MIB - one of the "good" guys - but her body was not destroyed (burned or buried) after death, so Smokey could use it. He also absorbs memories so the possessed can appear very legit to loved ones. Illustrates whey DI and Others obsess about dead bodies, they don't want their loved ones used after death. If my memory serves, none of the many people buried by the Losties was ever used in this way - some appeared in dreams, however. Big flaw to explore in this - why, when the Others wiped out the DI, they left most of the bodies in an open pit? Does Ben not realize this could be dangerous, or was it really not dangerous for the Others?

Type 2 possession - full possession where death may or may not be necessary and depends on the character of the person. Illustrates the importance of all this list making. Claire and Sayid are examples. Remember when Claire was kidnapped by the Others she was not indoctrinated into the Others like many of the Tailies were. They were specific in wanting the baby but not her. I'm not sure what, but there was something about her that the Others couldn't tolerate. Perhaps she was already claimed by MIB; perhaps they thought she was "claimable" because of her killing that person in the car accident (I think that's right - someone died in that crash?) and that precluded her from being a "good" guy. Hurley, Sayid, Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Ana Lucia, all figured in the deaths of other people before they crashed on the island - maybe that's why they were never accepted by the Others. Locke had no such history. Of course, Ethan never had a chance to finish his list and those individuals were complicit to different degrees - from being the "straw" that broke an overcrowded balcony to coldblooded murder. They were or had the potential of being claimed by MIB and could become very dangerous to the Others because they had killed. This is why the Others were sometimes ruthless about killing (once you're an Other, you can't be claimed by MIB) and ordered the death of Danielle (though Ben didn't follow the order). To them, you're either a good guy, i.e. an Other, or you could be or could become a very bad guy, one of those claimed by MIB, the dark force, so better off dead anyway.

The Others are not all knowing, however, and must test people to see if they're "good" or "bad" and sometimes those tests don't give clear answers. It will be interesting to see how the O6 figure into this when both MIB (as Locke) and an Other (Mrs. Hawking) both wanted these individuals back on the island, seemingly to fight the war that's coming. Whose side are they on?

BTW: does Dogan believe "dead is dead?" Sayid seems resurrected, but if that's possible why would he try to kill him? Second time the charm?

Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: westy185 on February 10, 2010, 07:39:58 PM
In type 1 possession, I don't mean he's actually using those bodies - these bodies are decaying and obviously Locke's body is there at the same time MIB is using it. He can now take the image of those bodies much like his shape shifting into Smokey. Timing is important here. Leave your body lying around long enough and its image is fair game.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 10, 2010, 08:00:27 PM
What about super-suspicious Amy and her strange behaviour?

She is hysterical when her husband Paul is killed and his killers are also shot dead. She insists that the killers' bodies are buried and that she takes her dead husband's corpse back home.

Before you can say "zombie", Richard comes knocking for Paul's body!!!

All very odd.

I don't believe that the burial had anything to do with hiding evidence to maintain a truce. The Others would have realised that two of their rank were missing at some point!
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 10, 2010, 08:10:46 PM
What about super-suspicious Amy and her strange behaviour?

She is hysterical when her husband Paul is killed and his killers are also shot dead. She insists that the killers' bodies are buried and that she takes her dead husband's corpse back home.

Before you can say "zombie", Richard comes knocking for Paul's body!!!

All very odd.

I don't believe that the burial had anything to do with hiding evidence to maintain a truce. The Others would have realised that two of their rank were missing at some point!

I think that was more like don't leave your dead bodies hanging about we have an odd situation here and we prefer not to have the images of your dead folk walking about - it may cause issues with your minds and we promised our deity to keep all dead material dsiposed of in a manner of speaking.

And another horse beaten to death
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 10, 2010, 09:33:03 PM
What about super-suspicious Amy and her strange behaviour?

She is hysterical when her husband Paul is killed and his killers are also shot dead. She insists that the killers' bodies are buried and that she takes her dead husband's corpse back home.

Before you can say "zombie", Richard comes knocking for Paul's body!!!

All very odd.

I don't believe that the burial had anything to do with hiding evidence to maintain a truce. The Others would have realised that two of their rank were missing at some point!

I think because they were spies for the others, they knew what would happen if they left the bodies.  She knew that they had to be buried.

Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 10, 2010, 09:42:32 PM
I've assumed that MIB has infected Claire, as Claire was with Christian in the cabin and I think we can say Christian was MIB.

That being said, I'm also saying that when Jacob met Hurley at the Van and told him to take him to the temple.  That wasn't Jacob, but it was MIB taking Jacob's form to get Sayid to the temple.  It was at that point he infected Sayid and Sayid was going to be his in at the temple.

Further to my original post, I was just reading my copy of Finding Lost Season 5 by Nikki Stafford.  Not sure if people have these books, they're great.  But I digress.

So I was reading about the last episode and it was pointed out that Sayid and Hurley were both touched by "Jacob" between flights.  All the others that were touched by Jacob were touched before they went on the original flight.  So "Jacob" touched the man who took the infected man to the temple between flights.  That's interesting.  Perhaps it isn't Jacob that touched Sayid and Hurley off the island.  Plus this Jacob gives Hurley the Ankh that gets them into the temple to get Sayid healed.  My buddy poked a hole in my original theory asking, why would Jacob give Hurley the guitar case that would get them through the door when it seems really bad that Sayid is now infected in the temple.  Well, it would appear to me that it wasn't actually Jacob handing the key to the castle after all.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 10, 2010, 10:03:29 PM

In thinking about infected, what does infected actually mean in terms the show?

You're part of MIB's army?  You're a puppet and do his bidding?  What does he get by claiming you?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: westy185 on February 10, 2010, 10:55:38 PM
What about super-suspicious Amy and her strange behaviour?

The whole incident is consistant with my theory of the 2 types of possession. Her haste in burying bodies, her acceptance in giving up her husband's body (this was a bizarre request yet no one expressed much surprise or outrage) tells me she and the other DI knows something is up with the bodies. They may not know exactly what, but she at least knows they mean something to the Hostiles/Others. Who knows, the sonic fence may have been put in place partly to protect their dead, or protect them from dead people.

This is not a perfect theory however. I have no idea, for instance, how Ben saw his mother. She didn't die on the island and I don't think Roger brought her body there. Unless he brought her cremains... ooo.... something to do with ashes?

I won't be shocked if the next episode stands all this on its head.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: westy185 on February 10, 2010, 11:02:25 PM

In thinking about infected, what does infected actually mean in terms the show?

You're part of MIB's army?  You're a puppet and do his bidding?  What does he get by claiming you?

I'll assume for now that infection or claiming does make you part of MIB's army, but what does being a part of that really mean? Is this really about good or bad, because some of the good looks pretty bad to me. And why have this battle at all? How is free will tied up in all this? Perhaps the Island is one big prison for MIB. Jacob and the "good" guys have kept him imprisoned there, but now he has the upper hand and gets to go "home." Why is he "disappointed" in "all you people?" Are Sun and Frank included in that? They don't even know what's going on. Are the Others NOT his enemies?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 10, 2010, 11:03:14 PM
I've assumed that MIB has infected Claire, as Claire was with Christian in the cabin and I think we can say Christian was MIB.

That being said, I'm also saying that when Jacob met Hurley at the Van and told him to take him to the temple.  That wasn't Jacob, but it was MIB taking Jacob's form to get Sayid to the temple.  It was at that point he infected Sayid and Sayid was going to be his in at the temple.

Further to my original post, I was just reading my copy of Finding Lost Season 5 by Nikki Stafford.  Not sure if people have these books, they're great.  But I digress.

So I was reading about the last episode and it was pointed out that Sayid and Hurley were both touched by "Jacob" between flights.  All the others that were touched by Jacob were touched before they went on the original flight.  So "Jacob" touched the man who took the infected man to the temple between flights.  That's interesting.  Perhaps it isn't Jacob that touched Sayid and Hurley off the island.  Plus this Jacob gives Hurley the Ankh that gets them into the temple to get Sayid healed.  My buddy poked a hole in my original theory asking, why would Jacob give Hurley the guitar case that would get them through the door when it seems really bad that Sayid is now infected in the temple.  Well, it would appear to me that it wasn't actually Jacob handing the key to the castle after all.

I dont' believe Jacob was portrayed by anyone else but himself. 
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 10, 2010, 11:10:42 PM
I've assumed that MIB has infected Claire, as Claire was with Christian in the cabin and I think we can say Christian was MIB.

That being said, I'm also saying that when Jacob met Hurley at the Van and told him to take him to the temple.  That wasn't Jacob, but it was MIB taking Jacob's form to get Sayid to the temple.  It was at that point he infected Sayid and Sayid was going to be his in at the temple.

Further to my original post, I was just reading my copy of Finding Lost Season 5 by Nikki Stafford.  Not sure if people have these books, they're great.  But I digress.

So I was reading about the last episode and it was pointed out that Sayid and Hurley were both touched by "Jacob" between flights.  All the others that were touched by Jacob were touched before they went on the original flight.  So "Jacob" touched the man who took the infected man to the temple between flights.  That's interesting.  Perhaps it isn't Jacob that touched Sayid and Hurley off the island.  Plus this Jacob gives Hurley the Ankh that gets them into the temple to get Sayid healed.  My buddy poked a hole in my original theory asking, why would Jacob give Hurley the guitar case that would get them through the door when it seems really bad that Sayid is now infected in the temple.  Well, it would appear to me that it wasn't actually Jacob handing the key to the castle after all.

I dont' believe Jacob was portrayed by anyone else but himself. 

Lil, when do you think Sayid got infected?  Not trying to start anything, just curious on your feeling on it.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 10, 2010, 11:21:16 PM
Trodge nice to meet you and thanks for have an good banter. I am not sure when he got infected, but it had to be between when Jacob's advising Hurley to when he was brought through the temple.  This is realy perplexing me because it is not truly following a pattern.

Claire, according to TPTB is not dead so how did she get infected?  Sayid allegedly died while being in the water. 

So - give me something I can sink my claws into to buy into this.  Unfortunately there is so much at play here.

Flesh it with me and prove to me I am wrong cause I am not cemented to any of this ....gut feelings now
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Bostonlost on February 10, 2010, 11:40:14 PM
All we know is the Dogan tells Jack he is infected....They could want Sayid dead.....What if Sayid is wanted to be the new Jacob or his vessel so to speak.....Why were certain people selected or brought to the Island? Now what if Jack by taking the poison he becomes the new Jacob?

I mean that would set up the classic battle between Jacob vs MIB....Faith(religionS) VS Science....maybe even not that I have seen it Good Vs Evil

But like Widmore Say ...There is a war coming
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 11, 2010, 12:15:51 AM
BL this is not so black and white
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 11, 2010, 12:28:33 AM
Trodge nice to meet you and thanks for have an good banter. I am not sure when he got infected, but it had to be between when Jacob's advising Hurley to when he was brought through the temple.  This is realy perplexing me because it is not truly following a pattern.

Claire, according to TPTB is not dead so how did she get infected?  Sayid allegedly died while being in the water. 

So - give me something I can sink my claws into to buy into this.  Unfortunately there is so much at play here.

Flesh it with me and prove to me I am wrong cause I am not cemented to any of this ....gut feelings now

Nice to chat with you...

Here's my thinking...

Claire takes a missle to her house, that's got to leave her maybe not dead as the producers claim, but damn close to it.  We don't know how bad she is because they didn't show us. Then we've got Sayid, he's been shot and as we saw, he was in really bad shape.  Can it be that as you are at your weakest and are about to leave this world, Smokey/MIB/Esau whatever, he can swoop in and infect you because you can't fight back and resist it.  The circumstance between Claire and Sayid is so similar and in both instances "someone" comes in and meets them at their roughest.  In one we've got Christian, who personally I think was/is MIB.  Then we've got Jacob and that's why I'm leaning to the fact that in fact, it wasn't Jacob at all.  The producers are playing us by saying, well, you all know Hurley can talk to dead people, so why wouldn't you just continue to think that Hurley is talkng to dead people.  But now we've really got to wonder anytime we see someone talking to a dead person that's not buried.  Because now they've thrown this shapeshifter card at us. Why would Jacob send Sayid to the temple knowing that there might be a chance that he might get infected?  Jacob knows he's dead, so shouldn't he know that the water wouldn't work? If he is indeed infected, when does this happen exactly?  I think he went through the front door infected and now MIB has got an inside man.  I didn't even notice Sayid and Hurley met Jacob during their time away from the island.  I really can't wrap my head around the fact the Jacob went and met them after he met the original losties.  Why weren't they important enough to visit the first time, but where important the second time?  It would appear that they are much more important to MIB then to Jacob at this point.

The thing that trips me up about this whole thing is, "the test"...what was "supposed" to happen?







Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Bostonlost on February 11, 2010, 12:31:24 AM
BL this is not so black and white

Never said it was....Actually how is what I said Black and White? I feel that most people here are taking what is said at face value.

Dogan says Sayid has a sickness....And Claire has this sickness...and now some think Roussou had said sickness..

Ok who says they are "sick". It's all about perception
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Bostonlost on February 11, 2010, 12:34:02 AM
Quote
Claire takes a missle to her house, that's got to leave her maybe not dead as the producers claim, but damn close to it

What do you mean takes a missle to her house?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 11, 2010, 12:37:59 AM
Quote
Claire takes a missle to her house, that's got to leave her maybe not dead as the producers claim, but damn close to it

What do you mean takes a missle to her house?

She said she was taking a nap goes inside a house, then later the house blows up and Sawyer pulls her out of the wreckage.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 11, 2010, 04:07:29 AM
All we know is the Dogan tells Jack he is infected....They could want Sayid dead.....

Yeah, this whole thread is supposition based on one person's claim that there is an infection.

The "test" Dogen carried out bothers me. It was almost like trial by dunking - a witch trial where you can't win. If you're dunked and drown in a witch trial, you weren't a witch at all; but if you survive the dunking, they kill you anyway because you're "obviously a witch"!

Who wouldn't have reacted the way Sayid did, from the electrodes and hot iron?

If Sayid would have passed the test, he would have obviously had to have had an opposite reaction to each of the tests. So, he would have no reaction to the pain from the electrodes and hot iron... And the ash? He would have reacted more dramatically to the ash, denoting that he was now similar to Smokey.

It's almost as if Dogen wanted Sayid to be non-human. Seeing as we only know of two non-humans with humanoid appearances in the show, could mean that he expected one of two things:

01. M.I.B. to be inside Sayid's body;
02. Jacob to be inside Sayid's body.

If Dogen did expect Jacob to be inside Sayid, then using the ash as a test is another huge clue that Jacob and M.I.B. are similar - and possibly the same.

I don't think Jacob's magical Kool Aid spring brought Sayid back to life; for a start, even The Others recognised the water was tainted and it failed to heal Dogen's cut. I think The Island itself brought Sayid back to life, because it isn't yet done with Sayid - and what The Island wants has never been about what Jacob (or M.I.B.) wants.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 11, 2010, 09:30:45 AM
I wonder if this test had something to do with Bram's comment about Lapidus being a candidate...

I was also wondering what the test was that Richard mentions about testing someone to become their leader...
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Adriana on February 11, 2010, 09:59:03 AM
I mentioned in another thread my thoughts on the puzzling outcome of "the test" -- that Mango's right: any normal human being who is NOT possessed would have acted exactly the same way as Sayid, which was:

Electrodes: Excruciating pain
Hot poker: Excruciating pain
Ash: Calm

I think that we all inferred that if Sayid WAS possessed or infected, he would have instead exhibited the following:   

Electrodes: Calm
Hot poker: Calm
Ash: Excruciating pain

Or you know -- maybe his reaction to all of those would have been to have his skin turn silver and start shimmering, or for his whole body to turn into butterflies and fly away.  Whatever -- something ABnormal. All we know is that he in fact acted the way any of us would have acted in the same situation, and WE'RE not infected.  So all I can tell here is that perhaps Dogen perceived that Sayid was FAKING his reactions -- that he was masking (very well) the pain he felt from the ash, that he was faking his screams from the electrodes and poker. 

The fact that Sayid wasn't blindfolded and could very well see what was about to happen to him with each instrument made it conceivable that he could quickly identify what Dogen's tests were going to be, and plan his reaction accordingly to fit what he knew a normal person would have done -- to fake Dogen out.  If I'm right that he was faking (and that this is in fact what led Dogen to conclude that he had failed), then had he been blindfolded, I bet we would have seen very different reactions to those things.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: westy185 on February 11, 2010, 10:39:51 AM
Something else to add to the mix - MIB as Locke purposely pushed Jacob's body into the flame which apparently utterly consumed it. Perhaps he knows he can never impersonate Jacob. I don't believe MIB can appear as or possess bodies that have been destroyed or buried or are off Island, so how then can Jacob appear to anyone (Hurley) unless he really is indeed Jacob.

Which leads me to think that Charlie's appearances are genuinely Charlie. Probably AnaLucia, too, and Mr. Echo (Hurley said he was playing chess with him.) Charlie implied he was in two times/dimensions at once. Perhaps that is really where Jacob's appearances and power lies - we know the Island can travel through time/dimension, why not Jacob? I believe he travelled back in time to talk to young Kate, etc. If that is true, his death may have no real meaning - which is why he didn't bother fighting for his life.

AnaLucia's appearance gets us to the question again of why go through all this with the O6? Whose side are each really on? Do both sides want them all back on the Island, or only some of them? Was the fact that some went to 1977 and some stayed in real time significant? Who controlled who would return when?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: PurpleLostPrincess on February 11, 2010, 12:54:07 PM
I'm loving all these theories and I'm churning them around in my head. But what hasn't been mentioned so far in terms of who can/cannot be 'infected' or used by MIB/Jacob, is Walt - he wasn't dead and yet he 'appeared' to various Losties, and when he did, there was lots of whispering etc. and he generally delivered what seemed to be relevant messages (sometimes not though!). This totally throws me as we know that he is alive and well in the 'real world' getting on with his life - my head hurts!!!  ::) ??? ::) ??? :-\
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: trodge on February 11, 2010, 01:30:40 PM
Oh Walt, I miss you...we could use your X-Men abilities right about now...

As big of a character as he was in the first few seasons, I just don't see how he could come back to the island at this point.

The producers have said that they'll only answers that help the characters in the current storylines.  We shouldn't see a character turn to someone and say oh hey, what about ???  As it'll just seem out of place.  Now that I've typed this, I wonder if Walt will be the key to merging the two timelines at the end.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: opgelost on February 11, 2010, 01:57:52 PM

In thinking about infected, what does infected actually mean in terms the show?

You're part of MIB's army?  You're a puppet and do his bidding?  What does he get by claiming you?

I'll assume for now that infection or claiming does make you part of MIB's army, but what does being a part of that really mean? Is this really about good or bad, because some of the good looks pretty bad to me. And why have this battle at all? How is free will tied up in all this? Perhaps the Island is one big prison for MIB. Jacob and the "good" guys have kept him imprisoned there, but now he has the upper hand and gets to go "home." Why is he "disappointed" in "all you people?" Are Sun and Frank included in that? They don't even know what's going on. Are the Others NOT his enemies?

I think Dogen said that the possession starts slowly (there is something dark in him.) So sayid is still Sayid and Locke is still Locke with
their personality and memories and they say that they are exactly the same person they were. But than the sickness spreads and once it reaches their heart, you will not recognise Sayid or Locke. Like Rousseau's husband who told her he loved her, but than shot her.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: laklost on February 11, 2010, 02:05:25 PM
Something else to add to the mix - MIB as Locke purposely pushed Jacob's body into the flame which apparently utterly consumed it. Perhaps he knows he can never impersonate Jacob. I don't believe MIB can appear as or possess bodies that have been destroyed or buried or are off Island, so how then can Jacob appear to anyone (Hurley) unless he really is indeed Jacob.

Which leads me to think that Charlie's appearances are genuinely Charlie. Probably AnaLucia, too, and Mr. Echo (Hurley said he was playing chess with him.) Charlie implied he was in two times/dimensions at once. Perhaps that is really where Jacob's appearances and power lies - we know the Island can travel through time/dimension, why not Jacob? I believe he travelled back in time to talk to young Kate, etc. If that is true, his death may have no real meaning - which is why he didn't bother fighting for his life.

AnaLucia's appearance gets us to the question again of why go through all this with the O6? Whose side are each really on? Do both sides want them all back on the Island, or only some of them? Was the fact that some went to 1977 and some stayed in real time significant? Who controlled who would return when?

Westy, I agree with you that Jacob is really Jacob.  I don't think that the conversation on the beach in "The Incident" was between two version of the same character. 
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 11, 2010, 02:08:17 PM
BL this is not so black and white

Never said it was....Actually how is what I said Black and White? I feel that most people here are taking what is said at face value.

Dogan says Sayid has a sickness....And Claire has this sickness...and now some think Roussou had said sickness..

Ok who says they are "sick". It's all about perception

We are in agreement and it is what it is....
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: horseshoe_crab on February 11, 2010, 02:30:06 PM
One thing that stood out to me about Dogen "testing" Sayid was the irony of torturing a torturer.  I'm assuming that Sayid, having been highly trained in the "persuasive arts" would also be highly trained in resisting these techniques as well.  I won't even begin to guess what Dogen expected/hoped/wanted to see, but let's assume (if it's an adversarial relationship) that Sayid's body knew how to react.

Incidentally, other than Jack, whose name is shouted out all the time, has Sayid used anyone else's name since his resurrection?  Is it possible that Dogen was testing for remembered skills, abilities, etc?  In other words, Sayid Jarrah was an accomplished torturer who wept like a baby during torture.  Maybe that's why Sayid failed...
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: KoKoNut on February 11, 2010, 03:09:04 PM
One thing that stood out to me about Dogen "testing" Sayid was the irony of torturing a torturer.  I'm assuming that Sayid, having been highly trained in the "persuasive arts" would also be highly trained in resisting these techniques as well.  I won't even begin to guess what Dogen expected/hoped/wanted to see, but let's assume (if it's an adversarial relationship) that Sayid's body knew how to react.

Incidentally, other than Jack, whose name is shouted out all the time, has Sayid used anyone else's name since his resurrection?  Is it possible that Dogen was testing for remembered skills, abilities, etc?  In other words, Sayid Jarrah was an accomplished torturer who wept like a baby during torture.  Maybe that's why Sayid failed...

I don't recall Sayid crying like a baby when Rousseau was torturing him in the earlier seasons.  He's different.  He's not Sayid.  I don't know what he is. But rest assured, he is NOT a zombie.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 11, 2010, 03:59:23 PM
There was something interesting noted, on a podcast I listened to, on the bus to work today. I think it was The Lost Mystery Podcast... They mentioned that Sayid had been wired-up to electrodes previously and zapped by none-other than Danielle Rousseau!

After zapping him (and having a similar reaction to when Dogen zapped him), Rousseau deduced that Sayid was safe. So, Sayid displays similar reactions to the same "diagnostic procedure" yet receives two differing diagnoses.

You know what I think "the infection" is?

Free will.

That line from Sayid bothered me... You know the line to Jack, when Sayid was being all doe-eyed and complicit about taking the pill? I think it was something like, "I'll do whatever you want, Jack, because I trust you". It was just so sappy and needn't have been verbalised in so many words. So why did the scriptwriters add the line?

Well, Dogen stated to Jack that Sayid hadn't yet fully succumbed to the infection. Maybe the next time Jack asks, Sayid is going to punch his lights out and tell him to get f***ed!!!

Who gave Sayid the gift of free will?... Not M.I.B. whom seems extremely cajoling (to put it mildly)... Not Jacob, whose magical springs were tainted and lifeless... Who else in the Lost universe has great magical God-like powers?

The Island.

Claire is now acting very much like Rousseau, and Dogen claims that Claire also has "the infection". So, we can deduce that Claire, Sayid and Rousseau have all (or will all) display similar symptoms.

Danielle was always perceived to be a threat to The Others, purely because she was deemed to be "crazy". Was she?... Of course not.

Now, maybe you have to die and be resurrected by The Island to be given this gift. Rousseau may have died at some point unseen; maybe even before giving birth to Alex. Ben's adopted darling daughter always did display a willful streak.

Speaking of children, teenagers naturally have a tendency to question the status quo, moreso than adults. The Others locked both Walt and Karl in Room 23, which always seemed unduly harsh.

The Others have always been anti-free will. They're nothing more than a cult.

There was more to this line of thought, but my mind was sidetracked by a phone call.

My thoughts had something to do with The Island allowing some people to die, whilst enabling others to re-live. It also had to do with Ben and Charles' "rules", which I now believe are nothing more than "only the players in the game can kill each other, because The Island will decide which of those killed will actually die"; so bringing outsiders to The Island (Keamy & co.) broke the rules because The Island didn't have control.

I'll try and remember how this tied into the "free will as infection" train of thought. Hmmm...
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: this is some crazy stuff on February 11, 2010, 04:55:22 PM
I think they suspect it's smokey. 

But it might be Jacob.  Since Jacob did say that Sayid must survive. 

Did Jacob tell us that or was MIB using Jacob's dead body since we know he can do that.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Adriana on February 11, 2010, 06:26:25 PM
I'm loving all these theories and I'm churning them around in my head. But what hasn't been mentioned so far in terms of who can/cannot be 'infected' or used by MIB/Jacob, is Walt - he wasn't dead and yet he 'appeared' to various Losties, and when he did, there was lots of whispering etc. and he generally delivered what seemed to be relevant messages (sometimes not though!). This totally throws me as we know that he is alive and well in the 'real world' getting on with his life - my head hurts!!!  ::) ??? ::) ??? :-\

ARGGHHH ... I don't think they will EVER explain that!!! (Walt's appearances).

To be honest, I was kind of disappointed in the episode.  I felt the cat-and-mouse between Dogen and Jack was unnecessary and forced the writers, too many questions posed and no answers, the scenes with Kate in Alt. 2007 were unnecessary (maybe). GAH.

However -- did anyone else notice a change in Sayid's demeanor?  I thought his vocal inflections sounded a lot more like a victim and meek and confused than Sayid normally sounds.  He's usually assertive and decisive even in situations where he has no idea what the hell is going on or where he's being attacked.  His voice sounds a little higher and more whiny than usual to me, and his accent sounds off (I know his Iraqi accent is fake anyway, due to Naveen Andrews being British, and can kind of go in and out just based on that ... but it sounds even worse now).
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 11, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
I was searching Lostpedia for something else entirely and came across this...

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Exodus,_Part_1

As they head deeper into the jungle, Rousseau sees a vine with what looks like blue powder on it and declares they have entered the Dark Territory. Rousseau says that it is here that her team got infected and Montand lost his arm.

I wonder if it's related to the ash (which I thought might be from the volcano or cremated bodies).
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Adriana on February 11, 2010, 07:27:47 PM
Okay, for everyone who thinks the the Infection is SEPARATE from MIB/Smokey, count me in.  I just convinced myself of this via another forum thread (http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php/topic,10250.0.html), which I think speaks to the topic on this thread fittingly:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think this actually gets to the point that there's contention about.  Are Smokey and "the infection" one and the same?

If they ARE one and the same, then Smokey is currently in Locke's body at the beach, AND now in Sayid's body at the temple, AND in Claire's body running around the forest ... and that would suggest he can be in multiple vessels at once.

HOWEVER -- when he appeared to Ben as Alex under the temple wall, UNLocke *disappeared* while Alex was in front of Ben.  Similarly, UNLocke disappeared while Smokey killed Jacob's SWAT team in the foot statue.  This would suggest that he CANNOT inhabit multiple vessels at once.

..... I think I've just convinced myself that Smokey and the Infection are actually 2 separate things, now ... bringing our total of "other-worldly entities of ambiguous moral standing" to 3:

1: MIB/Smokey
2: Infection
3: Jacob

Yay, LSAT logic!!!

By this theory ... it's possible that the Infection is a tool used by MIB/Smokey (kind of like a magic spell), but not MIB/Smokey inhabiting bodies himself.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 11, 2010, 07:45:33 PM
By this theory ... it's possible that the Infection is a tool used by MIB/Smokey (kind of like a magic spell), but not MIB/Smokey inhabiting bodies himself.

I think that Rousseau's team were "Smokeyfied"...

I don't think that Rousseau or Sayid or Claire are (or were) infected with anything other than the desire to not swallow The Others' brainwashing!

And I still think that Deliverance-Claire is not the same person (or thing) as Cabin-Bonged-Claire.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: KoKoNut on February 11, 2010, 08:54:19 PM


Quote
And I still think that Deliverance-Claire is not the same person (or thing) as Cabin-Bonged-Claire.

Deliverance-Claire! Oh Mango!  That's priceless!  :D
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 11, 2010, 09:04:53 PM


Quote
And I still think that Deliverance-Claire is not the same person (or thing) as Cabin-Bonged-Claire.

Deliverance-Claire! Oh Mango!  That's priceless!  :D

Sometimes you just have to cut to the chase!  :D
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Creflo on February 11, 2010, 10:21:29 PM
The episode was half-over when I started this topic.  I was frustrated by two uses of the old "there's no direct translation of this Japanese word, but the closest is..." infected in the first instance and claimed the second.  I think we'll find a better term.  He was awfully Christ-like as he was carried out of the tea, prior to a resurrection of sorts.

I think about the Spanish commercial released before this season that put everything into a chess context.  Presumably, all of the characters are the pieces and Jacob plays the white.  Some pieces are coerced into movements by deception and clever play.  Some are captured.

The evidence seems to be that MIB/smokey clones the dead.  These would include Locke, Christian, and Yemi...and possibly other instances of apparitions from the consciousnesses of Islanders.  Like Dave.

Quote
In the Official Lost Podcast/May 26, 2006, the producers said, "There's a good chance that you guys saw the Monster this year Season 2, but just didn't realize you were looking at the Monster." Gregg Nations later stated that the appearance of the Monster was after the episode "The 23rd Psalm" and likely in the second half of the season. It is possible that the Monster assumed the guise of "Dave" in the episode of that name in season two. If it could get Hurley to kill himself, it has eliminated a pivotal character able to speak to the dead. Making it his choice rather than a direct attack may relate to rules around 'choice'. Remember, Jacob told Hurley it was his choice to return to the island.

MIB plays the game by manipulating others using pieces he has already claimed, and his goal in winning the game is to get home.  Maybe pack up the spaceship (Island) and leave this planet of unworthy beings.  Jacob's goal is to redeem humanity.

I don't think that the dark souls like Sayid and Claire are possessed in the sense that Linda Blair portrayed.  They may be "possessed" in the way one possesses the captured pieces of an opponent in chess.

In the case of Sayid, I think the more appropriate word might be damned.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: laklost on February 11, 2010, 11:05:29 PM
I agree with everything you just said.  MIB uses, Jacobs guides.  Your definition of possessed is spot on.  And Sayid saw what was coming to him.  If he can be saved, then so might Locke-corpse - and all of them.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: CaseyMac on February 12, 2010, 01:50:17 AM
I agree with everything you just said.  MIB uses, Jacobs guides.  Your definition of possessed is spot on.  And Sayid saw what was coming to him.  If he can be saved, then so might Locke-corpse - and all of them.

Oh yeah! I love it! I'm a big fan of Creflo's theory too. Except, I'm not sure Locke can be saved anymore. The real Locke is pretty dead I think.

Also, "Deliverance-Claire" is easily the funniest thing I've heard since "We'll be at the food court."
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: laklost on February 12, 2010, 10:50:23 AM
I think the fact that the real Locke is completely dead (murdered by Ben like the real Jacob was murdered by Ben) hints more at what the positive energy of the island can accomplish.  I am looking for the Rise of the Real Locke to counteract the Rise of the Fake Locke.  Wait for the island.  Wait for it.  It will rise too.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: jamesl on February 12, 2010, 01:12:13 PM
..  In other words, Sayid Jarrah was an accomplished torturer who wept like a baby during torture. 

I think that's due to the resurrection.
He just came back from the dead. His body and mind were still very weak.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MachThree on February 12, 2010, 03:08:47 PM
..  In other words, Sayid Jarrah was an accomplished torturer who wept like a baby during torture. 

I think that's due to the resurrection.
He just came back from the dead. His body and mind were still very weak.

They held a red hot poker on his chest for several seconds.  What training should he have received that would make him simply brush that off? 
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: opgelost on February 13, 2010, 06:29:58 AM
All we know is the Dogan tells Jack he is infected....They could want Sayid dead.....What if Sayid is wanted to be the new Jacob or his vessel so to speak.....Why were certain people selected or brought to the Island? Now what if Jack by taking the poison he becomes the new Jacob?

I mean that would set up the classic battle between Jacob vs MIB....Faith(religionS) VS Science....maybe even not that I have seen it Good Vs Evil

But like Widmore Say ...There is a war coming

Jacob put a note in the guitarcase with their names on it, before they went back to 1977 and Sayid got shot by Roger Linus. He told Hurley
to bring Sayid to the temple, because he needed to be saved and Dogen said that if he died, they would all be in big trouble. They tried to save him, but it didn't work, he died. they didn't even know that Jacob was dead when they did it, because Hurley tells them later.
Now they are in big trouble, because Sayid died and his body got possessed.
Why would they want Sayid dead if Jacob told them to save him and they all are followers of Jacob? They want the thing that is in Sayid now dead.

They brought them all to the temple to save them from Smokey. But Sawyer ran away and Kate escaped and Jack doesn't want to kill the darkness that is in Sayid and tries to commit suicide and Jin only wants to find Sun. I would just drown them all, if I was an other.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 13, 2010, 06:47:41 AM
Jacob put a note in the guitarcase with their names on it, before they went back to 1977 and Sayid got shot by Roger Linus. He told Hurley
to bring Sayid to the temple, because he needed to be saved and Dogen said that if he died, they would all be in big trouble. They tried to save him, but it didn't work, he died. they didn't even know that Jacob was dead when they did it, because Hurley tells them later.
Now they are in big trouble, because Sayid died and his body got possessed.

Something doesn't make sense.

If Jacob had the foresight to write a list of names (knowing that Hurley would eventually give the list to the Temple Leader) why didn't he add to the note:

"P.S. If you are reading this, I am dead. Don't dunk anybody in the pool!!! Laterz! lolz"

...or words to that effect?

You know, you either have all-seeing foresight, or you don't.

Why did Jacob tell Hurley to take Sayid to The Temple at all? It was Jacob's magical pool, wasn't it? Wouldn't Jacob of all people know that it wouldn't function properly after his death - especially as he was instructing Hurley whilst in an apparent state of being dead!!!

I've thought about the possibility of Jacob being Smokey when instructing Hurley to take Sayid to The Temple, but Smokey seems to need bodies in close proximity to impersonate people, and Jacob's was incinerated at that time.

There's also the fact that Dogen never considered the possibility that the "Jacob" Hurley was instructed by, could have been Smokey. Maybe Smokey can't impersonate a body that Jacob previously had, so that's why he kicked Jacob's body into the fire, because it was unuseable to him?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 13, 2010, 07:14:11 AM
Jacob put a note in the guitarcase with their names on it, before they went back to 1977 and Sayid got shot by Roger Linus. He told Hurley
to bring Sayid to the temple, because he needed to be saved and Dogen said that if he died, they would all be in big trouble. They tried to save him, but it didn't work, he died. they didn't even know that Jacob was dead when they did it, because Hurley tells them later.
Now they are in big trouble, because Sayid died and his body got possessed.

Something doesn't make sense.

If Jacob had the foresight to write a list of names (knowing that Hurley would eventually give the list to the Temple Leader) why didn't he add to the note:

"P.S. If you are reading this, I am dead. Don't dunk anybody in the pool!!! Laterz! lolz"

...or words to that effect?

You know, you either have all-seeing foresight, or you don't.

Why did Jacob tell Hurley to take Sayid to The Temple at all? It was Jacob's magical pool, wasn't it? Wouldn't Jacob of all people know that it wouldn't function properly after his death - especially as he was instructing Hurley whilst in an apparent state of being dead!!!

I've thought about the possibility of Jacob being Smokey when instructing Hurley to take Sayid to The Temple, but Smokey seems to need bodies in close proximity to impersonate people, and Jacob's was incinerated at that time.

There's also the fact that Dogen never considered the possibility that the "Jacob" Hurley was instructed by, could have been Smokey. Maybe Smokey can't impersonate a body that Jacob previously had, so that's why he kicked Jacob's body into the fire, because it was unuseable to him?

Ummm you just made me realize something Jacob was burned so nothing can take his body over, period.  We have been through ths body burying , burning on the island iti s repeated so whatever th reason it does not allow that body to be taken over.
I am not so sure that Smokey has to be close by to take the image over afterwasrd.  Why he knew wha Locke felt, okay we can be opning another avneue here, but the point is that Locke was in LA at thhe time of death.  So can he just go through teh portals that Ben went through?    An if Smokey i still think something even if it is Smokey had Ben's Mom appear and seh was not on that island at all.  So is it cerebral ?

The note in the guitar case.  WE do not know what it said it may have provided them with just enough information for Dogen to make sure that nothing happened to these people.  Even Lennon (guy with glasses ) tells Kate brng sawywer back safe and I could be rwong but alive.  There is cause for keeping tese people safe.

Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 13, 2010, 07:22:44 AM
I am not so sure that Smokey has to be close by to take the image over afterwasrd.  Why he knew wha Locke felt, okay we can be opning another avneue here, but the point is that Locke was in LA at thhe time of death.  So can he just go through teh portals that Ben went through?

I don't think time is an issue. I just think that the dead body has to be on The Island at some point in time. However, I think that incinerating the body at any time, renders it useless to Smokey.

I'm hoping that Locke's corpse (currently unceremoniously sprawled on the beach) is burned at some point. It would answer a lot of my questions.

I started a whole big thread about dead bodies last night!:

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php/topic,10291.0.html

 :)
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 13, 2010, 07:29:41 AM
I am not so sure that Smokey has to be close by to take the image over afterwasrd.  Why he knew wha Locke felt, okay we can be opning another avneue here, but the point is that Locke was in LA at thhe time of death.  So can he just go through teh portals that Ben went through?

I don't think time is an issue. I just think that the dead body has to be on The Island at some point in time. However, I think that incinerating the body at any time, renders it useless to Smokey.

I'm hoping that Locke's corpse (currently unceremoniously sprawled on the beach) is burned at some point. It would answer a lot of my questions.

I started a whole big thread about dead bodies last night!:

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php/topic,10291.0.html

 :)

I wish you would podcast your stuff so when i am at the gym I can listen to it.  A your voice is easy to listen to and I enjoy your well thought and researched theories.
pulling out of the air doesn't work for me.  Guess that is my character ;)
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: opgelost on February 13, 2010, 08:58:28 AM
Why did Jacob tell Hurley to take Sayid to The Temple at all? It was Jacob's magical pool, wasn't it? Wouldn't Jacob of all people know that it wouldn't function properly after his death - especially as he was instructing Hurley whilst in an apparent state of being dead!!!

Because he was just killed and discovered Smokey was walking around disguised as John Locke. They would absolutely trust Locke, even if they know he died, so Jacob had to get them to the temple, to keep them safe from Smoky and to let the templepeople know that he had just been killed and Smoky was free and they had to be carefull and that if one of the losties would come back to life, they had to test him and kick him out of the temple or kill him. The only one Jacob could talk to was Hurley. Hurley desperately wanted to save Sayid, but could only get to the temple with the information Jin had, because he travelled to the time when Rousseau's team got there. Jin also saw what happened when somebody gets infected.

I don't think Jacob is forseeing or all-knowing. I still believe they are playing a strategic game and try to move the losties in the direction they want putting things on their way that will make them choose the thing they want them to choose, but they cannot force them, because they have free will. Jacob is trying to prove Smoky wrong. Smoky is trying to find a way to kill Jacob and turn back home. Jacob is dead, but still in the game. He has a lot of followers and talks to them through Hurley. 
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 13, 2010, 10:42:22 AM
Yeah that is an odd calling card to say hey save my friends but then this is lost
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Adriana on February 13, 2010, 04:57:58 PM

Jacob put a note in the guitarcase with their names on it, before they went back to 1977 and Sayid got shot by Roger Linus. He told Hurley
to bring Sayid to the temple, because he needed to be saved and Dogen said that if he died, they would all be in big trouble. They tried to save him, but it didn't work, he died. they didn't even know that Jacob was dead when they did it, because Hurley tells them later.
Now they are in big trouble, because Sayid died and his body got possessed.
Why would they want Sayid dead if Jacob told them to save him and they all are followers of Jacob? They want the thing that is in Sayid now dead.

They brought them all to the temple to save them from Smokey. But Sawyer ran away and Kate escaped and Jack doesn't want to kill the darkness that is in Sayid and tries to commit suicide and Jin only wants to find Sun. I would just drown them all, if I was an other.

Too hilarious!!!  You empathize with the Others pretty accurately.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: westy185 on February 15, 2010, 07:22:40 PM

I think about the Spanish commercial released before this season that put everything into a chess context.  Presumably, all of the characters are the pieces and Jacob plays the white.  Some pieces are coerced into movements by deception and clever play.  Some are captured.

The evidence seems to be that MIB/Smokey clones the dead.  These would include Locke, Christian, and Yemi...and possibly other instances of apparitions from the consciousnesses of Islanders.  Like Dave.

MIB plays the game by manipulating others using pieces he has already claimed, and his goal in winning the game is to get home.  Maybe pack up the spaceship (Island) and leave this planet of unworthy beings.  Jacob's goal is to redeem humanity.

I don't think that the dark souls like Sayid and Claire are possessed in the sense that Linda Blair portrayed.  They may be "possessed" in the way one possesses the captured pieces of an opponent in chess.

In the case of Sayid, I think the more appropriate word might be damned.


So well said, Creflo, I wanted to quote it again.

This all goes back to the beginning of the show: backgammon, black and white, the Others creating lists, claims of being the "good" guys, infection - all this was brought up in the first season. Clearly this Lost is a version of the eternal struggle between good and evil.

I've proposed for years now that the Others do not let people in their club who have caused the deaths of other people - using Creflo's term - they are damned so not eligible to join. The Others have been shown to be able to gather a lot of intel about our Losties, it seems to come from the outside world and certainly Ben has agents on the outside world working for him, but maybe Smokey has more to do with this than outerworld private investigators.

Smokey has been able to read minds from the beginning - it's the only explanation for the appearance of Dave, who we know only existed within the mind of Hurley and clearly Smokey's encounter with Echo was very much like a mind reading. Locke and Echo both referred to their encounters and being judged. We also know Ben had some control over Smokey, other Others may have, too. It was always creepy to me how matter-of-factly Rousseau referred to Smokey as "a security system." She sounded very sure and very unafraid of it, like this was nothing magical or supernatural, just some THING that could be put to practical use. Perhaps Smokey is not MIB/UnLocke at all, he is just calling it to do his bidding. I know UnLocke said something like, "sorry you had to see me that way" but we know the guy lies.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 15, 2010, 08:37:43 PM
Nice points on both sides but where does the island a character since the start fit in on the "sides' of black and white?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: grizn0 on February 16, 2010, 08:44:49 AM
I'm starting to think there are 3 parties at play here. Jacob, MIB, and the Island itself.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 16, 2010, 09:06:53 AM
I'm starting to think there are 3 parties at play here. Jacob, MIB, and the Island itself.

Well, Griz how are you and here is a case of your favorite beer.  I found someone who is on the same island as me.  Geesh! I was wondering if it was my deodorant
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: lovinlost on February 16, 2010, 03:07:43 PM

I thought he passed the test by being injured and not turning into a smokey
I was really suprised when they said he failed

I'm not saying this is true, but an interesting thought, nonetheless...

What if there was NO electric current being passed through Sayid, but he screamed anyway?  They would know for sure he was faking.  He failed the test.

And the ash being blown over the top of him was to keep Smokey from escaping from Sayid's body.

And the hot poker was actually just a branding or mark.

However, one problem I have with the idea of Sayid being inhabited by Smokey is that Smokey doesn't inhabit bodies.  He uses the IMAGES of dead bodies.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MachThree on February 16, 2010, 05:08:40 PM

What if there was NO electric current being passed through Sayid, but he screamed anyway?  They would know for sure he was faking.  He failed the test.


I like this line of reasoning - its the first I've seen that actually might make sense as to why Sayid failed. 
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: lovinlost on February 16, 2010, 05:27:37 PM

What if there was NO electric current being passed through Sayid, but he screamed anyway?  They would know for sure he was faking.  He failed the test.


I like this line of reasoning - its the first I've seen that actually might make sense as to why Sayid failed. 


Thanks!  Unfortunately, I did not come up with it, but saw it on another site and it just clicked in my head.  I'm really beginning to wonder if there isn't something to it.  I've been mulling it around all afternoon and was hoping some others here would have something to add.  Thank you!
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: MangoBingo on February 16, 2010, 06:21:12 PM
I'm not saying this is true, but an interesting thought, nonetheless...

What if there was NO electric current being passed through Sayid, but he screamed anyway?  They would know for sure he was faking.  He failed the test.

And the ash being blown over the top of him was to keep Smokey from escaping from Sayid's body.

And the hot poker was actually just a branding or mark.

On The Lost Initiative video podcast, Iain Lee pointed something out about the poker. You never saw it mark his skin. Sayid might have been screaming like any of us would have, but we never saw any actual burn.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: lovinlost on February 16, 2010, 08:09:41 PM
I'm not saying this is true, but an interesting thought, nonetheless...

What if there was NO electric current being passed through Sayid, but he screamed anyway?  They would know for sure he was faking.  He failed the test.

And the ash being blown over the top of him was to keep Smokey from escaping from Sayid's body.

And the hot poker was actually just a branding or mark.

On The Lost Initiative video podcast, Iain Lee pointed something out about the poker. You never saw it mark his skin. Sayid might have been screaming like any of us would have, but we never saw any actual burn.

Interesting!  That would go along with the "Sayid is faking pain" theory.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Madam P on February 17, 2010, 03:00:56 PM


I've proposed for years now that the Others do not let people in their club who have caused the deaths of other people - using Creflo's term - they are damned so not eligible to join.


So, like Juliet maybe?  I keep coming back to trying to make a parallel between the "branding" that Juliet got after her "trial" for murder, and this hot poker thing that Dogen did to Sayid.  Sounds like a lot of people are thinking along the lines of it maybe being a sort of branding.

I like the thought that the three things Dogen did weren't necessarily "together" to form one single thing, ie: a test.  Maybe it's like lovinlost says -- the ash was to keep "the dark" from escaping Sayid's body; the electric current was the test (to see if he'd turn into Smokey -- since as we've seen Locke became Smokey when he was attacked); and the hot poker was just a brand to mark Sayid as "flawed" somehow.  I don't know... but I like that train.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: JBRam on February 28, 2010, 12:03:36 AM
I had a non-Lost friend of mine do a neutral translation of the "infected" phrase. This is what he said:

Quote from: JB's Friend
I'd say "he must have been summoned, don't you think?" summoned in the sense of a king, lord, etc calling on a follower... like he was "summoned" to do the bidding of some higher power? I'm not sure where they're getting the "posessed" translation from (From the DarkUFO site)
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 28, 2010, 09:19:08 AM
: (v) infect (communicate a disease to) "Your children have infected you with this head cold"
S: (v) infect, taint (contaminate with a disease or microorganism) S: (v) infect (corrupt with ideas or an ideology) "society was infected by racism"
S: (v) infect (affect in a contagious way) "His laughter infects everyone who is in the same room"
Adjective
S: (adj) septic, infected (containing or resulting from disease-causing organisms) "a septic sore throat"; "a septic environment"; "septic sewage"

there is a darkness growing inside of him -
so if it is growing inside of him it the above would seem to apply more to the "infection"

Branding - I think that is just in case we end up with Zombies
And on a serious note maybe she was also tested and really got the hot poker to the skin.
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: Bostonlost on February 28, 2010, 08:13:39 PM
Again "infection = possession" or crazy is all realitive

I women (not being sexus here) stuck alone on a Island looking for her child?

I mean when a group says that a person is crazy or not right..... what if the group is crazy? If we are looking at this from the outside in what is it that we are seeing?

We see Rousseau fending off her fellow science team..We see her shooting them becuase she says the where infected...but was it her that was infected? Was it them try to fend her off.

Dogen says Sayid and now claire are infected...I don't know a total stranger?
Title: Re: infection = possession
Post by: LostinLock on February 28, 2010, 09:27:02 PM
Again "infection = possession" or crazy is all realitive

I women (not being sexus here) stuck alone on a Island looking for her child?

I mean when a group says that a person is crazy or not right..... what if the group is crazy? If we are looking at this from the outside in what is it that we are seeing?

We see Rousseau fending off her fellow science team..We see her shooting them becuase she says the where infected...but was it her that was infected? Was it them try to fend her off.

Dogen says Sayid and now claire are infected...I don't know a total stranger?
Not sexist at all, but you kind of lost me here.  I am just talking about her being infected.  No doubt she is off a few inches on the normal scale.  Not balanced at all, but then again if Claire was thinking normal then she would not part of MIB merry recruits