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Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 6 => Episode 6x01 => Topic started by: Bostonlost on February 03, 2010, 01:23:13 AM

Title: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Bostonlost on February 03, 2010, 01:23:13 AM
Ok so this might be out there…..Way out there

But it is a theory I have had since the “Incident” last year.

The idea is Schrödinger's cat and this is pretty basic interpetation and is pretty loose. I could go deep into it but it's late and I would bore the you know what out of you.....Eyes glazed over...haha

Schrödinger's Cat: A cat, along with a flask containing a poison, is placed in a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence. If an internal Geiger counter detects radiation, the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when we look in the box, we see the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead.

How it relates?
The quantum-mechanical "Schrödinger's cat" paradox according to the many-worlds interpretation. In this interpretation every event is a branch point; the cat is both alive and dead, irrespective of whether the box is opened, but the "alive" and "dead" cats are in different branches of the universe, both of which are equally real, but which cannot interact with each other.

Hugh Everett III (Think Faraday)……Was an American physicist who first proposed the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics.

Basically the idea is you sit in a chair watching Lost. At some point you might think you need a drink of water.

Now Atoms can split….Humans are made up of atoms…..

Did an alternate version of you go to get that glass of water? Is the other version of you still sitting down watching TV?

Again it’s out there I know but it does relate.

When Juliet (the cat) hits the bomb it changed events in an alternate future.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: JMart on February 03, 2010, 02:34:15 AM
(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2629/vlcsnap7534993.png) (http://img192.imageshack.us/i/vlcsnap7534993.png/)
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Bostonlost on February 03, 2010, 02:43:07 AM
Great Pic Jmart
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: WhatThe on February 03, 2010, 04:40:14 AM
Ok so this might be out there…..Way out there

But it is a theory I have had since the “Incident” last year.

The idea is Schrödinger's cat and this is pretty basic interpetation and is pretty loose. I could go deep into it but it's late and I would bore the you know what out of you.....Eyes glazed over...haha

Schrödinger's Cat: A cat, along with a flask containing a poison, is placed in a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence...
Eyes have now glazed over lol...
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: jasond on February 03, 2010, 04:40:42 AM
I'm on board. Have you ever read "Timeline" by Michael Crichton? It doesn't mention the Cat but it deals with Quantum theory and the same kind of multiple reality stuff. At the quantum level, you could possibly jump between realities. It talks about how the multiple time lines and how they can and do interact with each other. Hence the Desmond time jumping stuff.

I also thinks it presents a possible (and probably frustrating) ending to the show. Maybe one character will be asked to "open the box."
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: jamesl on February 03, 2010, 05:19:50 AM
wait
there was a cat in this episode ?
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Gutterball94 on February 03, 2010, 08:45:23 AM
The idea is Schrödinger's cat and this is pretty basic interpetation and is pretty loose. I could go deep into it but it's late and I would bore the you know what out of you.....Eyes glazed over...haha

How many class credits was that worth??  ;D

I watch Fringe so this wasn't completely over my head. The most basic interpretation of this is the Futurama episode called "The Farnsworth Parabox" in which they venture to different universes that are created every time someone makes a choice.

In Fringe we've seen glimpses into another universe where different choices have been made, so naturally different consequences have resulted.

I'm on board with this. It's plausible and fits well with the quantum physics that we've been getting accustomed to.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Luna C on February 03, 2010, 08:49:02 AM
wait
there was a cat in this episode ?

You didn't notice that Vincent got turned into a cat after the incident? ;)
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Blitz Wing on February 03, 2010, 09:05:17 AM
I think you're on to something, but I suggest something slightly different.

I'm familiar with Schrödinger's cat experiment, and related experiment called the Double Slit Experiment.

Here's a couple of good video explaining both:
Schrödinger's Cat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxqTtiWxs4
Double Slit Experiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

Basically both experiments relates to quantum physics, and says that the outcome is determined when you observe what's going on. In Schrödinger's Cat, you don't know if the cat is dead or alive until you look in the box. In the Double Slit Experiment an electron will behave a certain way but if you look at it, it will behave differently....the act of looking changes things.

So we have two timelines, the one we're familiar with where Jughead didn't go off (Everybody's on the Island), and the one where Jughead did go off (everybody is off the sunken island). So let say it has to be one or the other only. Like Schrödinger's Cat experiment, the state of the timelines is both at the same time because nobody has looked in the box yet. So maybe at some point at the end of the season, somebody will look in the box....and at that time it will be determined which timeline actually exists. Maybe this Box might actually be the Box Ben talks about.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Gutterball94 on February 03, 2010, 03:07:20 PM
Pulled from Lostpedia:

Put in LOST terms, the lost people are both on the island (plane crashed) and off the island (plane never crashed) (to the viewer (outside the box)), until someone is able to peer inside and actually see what happened...in other words, one of the lost people is going to have to "open the box" (aka, find a way to see what actually happened) in order to reveal the true reality of the effect of the bomb. Therefore, the rest of the season will be showing us, the viewer, both POSSIBLE outcomes of what happened when the bomb went off (off the island vs. on the island) At some point someone (maybe Desmond) will have the ability to 'peer inside the box' and figure out which reality actually happened as a result of the bomb.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Bostonlost on February 03, 2010, 03:18:22 PM
Pulled from Lostpedia:

Put in LOST terms, the lost people are both on the island (plane crashed) and off the island (plane never crashed) (to the viewer (outside the box)), until someone is able to peer inside and actually see what happened...in other words, one of the lost people is going to have to "open the box" (aka, find a way to see what actually happened) in order to reveal the true reality of the effect of the bomb. Therefore, the rest of the season will be showing us, the viewer, both POSSIBLE outcomes of what happened when the bomb went off (off the island vs. on the island) At some point someone (maybe Desmond) will have the ability to 'peer inside the box' and figure out which reality actually happened as a result of the bomb.

Agreed ....But that still doesn't mean that both timelines are not happening and will continue on.

Unless they are going to collided
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: lostfromthestart on February 03, 2010, 03:27:28 PM
So we have two timelines, the one we're familiar with where Jughead didn't go off (Everybody's on the Island), and the one where Jughead did go off (everybody is off the sunken island). So let say it has to be one or the other only. Like Schrödinger's Cat experiment, the state of the timelines is both at the same time because nobody has looked in the box yet. So maybe at some point at the end of the season, somebody will look in the box....and at that time it will be determined which timeline actually exists. Maybe this Box might actually be the Box Ben talks about.

But the bomb DID go off in both timelines, just with differing results.  Where they are still on the island they are sent forward to the aftermath of the later date where Locke did not push the button.  The Hatch has long been blown to smithereens, and the seven characters and the VW bus are in their respective prior positions, with Juliet at the position of the shaft bottom.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Madam P on February 03, 2010, 03:49:33 PM
This stuff is so far over my head it's ridiculous, but I have to say... JMart, that picture scares the bejesus out of me.  That's the most evil-looking expression we've seen on anyone on Lost yet to date, I think.  Give O'Quinn an Emmy just for that alone.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: JBRam on February 03, 2010, 04:33:40 PM
I kinda like the Schrodinger explanation... I'm not sure that I agree or not, but I like it.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: jamesl on February 03, 2010, 08:09:52 PM
So we have two timelines, the one we're familiar with where Jughead didn't go off (Everybody's on the Island), and the one where Jughead did go off (everybody is off the sunken island). So let say it has to be one or the other only. Like Schrödinger's Cat experiment, the state of the timelines is both at the same time because nobody has looked in the box yet. So maybe at some point at the end of the season, somebody will look in the box....and at that time it will be determined which timeline actually exists. Maybe this Box might actually be the Box Ben talks about.

But the bomb DID go off in both timelines, just with differing results.  Where they are still on the island they are sent forward to the aftermath of the later date where Locke did not push the button.  The Hatch has long been blown to smithereens, and the seven characters and the VW bus are in their respective prior positions, with Juliet at the position of the shaft bottom.

we aren't actually sure the bomb went off in both timelines/universes
if it had gone off in the timeline where she eventually ends up dead, then she would have been dead long before Sawyere digs her out :)

we do know that Juliete, Sawyer, Kate, Jack, Miles and the rest were time shifted,
but maybe they were more than just shifted to a later date
maybe they were shifted to a time/universe where the bomb did not go off
so the hatch was built and later destroyed when Des turned the failsafe key
but Juliete still retains her memories of detonating the bomb in the other timeline/universe
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Bostonlost on February 03, 2010, 10:10:38 PM
I am going with time is a street...It took me awhile to buy into that logic but like many of us here it is the rule of the comic book geek.

I am kinda seeing it as another street that runs parallel to the one that we are used to seeing. Things lead up to 1977 and then split. A butterfly effect takes place on the alternate street. Meaning things are the same but slightly different.

Here on the new street Jack is the nervous flier, with maybe not the drinking problem he has on the other street. Frogurt is still a pain in the arse...But Hurley is different and so on.

I am looking forward to see how this plays out. Only once did I take issue with the writers...
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Asmodean on February 04, 2010, 12:05:31 AM
To quote FJL "Most of what he says is over my head.  The rest is WAY over it."
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: mushermellon on February 04, 2010, 12:18:31 AM
If someone "looks into the box," maybe it's Desmond, since he is (or was?) special.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Optimus J on February 04, 2010, 02:01:32 PM
My guess is that the ones that will look inside the box are each of us, inside our heads, choosing the end that fits most what we like.
I am with the Schrödinger's cat on this one. There aren't 2 parallel universes. There is ONE, and LA X timeline will be explained and fitted to be acceptable as a possibility, just like island one is now, with all the known details we have.
And one thing that pushes me on this way is the fact that LOST will be really finished in this season. No wayy to develop anything more, after that, the producers said more than once.
The "we will not define which one happened" style of Schrödinger's cat port to the series fits that. That's why I believe in it.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: RM on February 05, 2010, 08:09:08 PM
I thought Juliet told Sawyer that she tried to explode the bomb but it wouldn't go off (and Sawyer was upset that she went along with Jack's plan because that meant she wished they had never met).

BTW, I'm on board with both timelines ultimately merging.  That should at least agree with the show's notion that the universe will always correct itself ultimately.  So something in the original 2007 must also cause the Island to wind up at the bottom of the ocean.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: westy185 on February 06, 2010, 07:36:04 PM

Here's a couple of good video explaining both:
Schrödinger's Cat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxqTtiWxs4
Double Slit Experiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

Basically both experiments relates to quantum physics, and says that the outcome is determined when you observe what's going on. In Schrödinger's Cat, you don't know if the cat is dead or alive until you look in the box. In the Double Slit Experiment an electron will behave a certain way but if you look at it, it will behave differently....the act of looking changes things.

So we have two timelines, the one we're familiar with where Jughead didn't go off (Everybody's on the Island), and the one where Jughead did go off (everybody is off the sunken island). So let say it has to be one or the other only. Like Schrödinger's Cat experiment, the state of the timelines is both at the same time because nobody has looked in the box yet. So maybe at some point at the end of the season, somebody will look in the box....and at that time it will be determined which timeline actually exists. Maybe this Box might actually be the Box Ben talks about.


Thanks for sharing those videos - double split is mind blowing.

Your or anyone else's take on how this could relate to Locke's father? I'll never forget Ben explaining to Locke that "you brought him here" when Locke asks just how his dad ended up on the island. This is also when Ben spoke of the Box.

We now know that Jacob figured in Locke's fall and apparently saved his life. In an ABC preview, Locke's fall is seen again from a bird's perspective, but he is going UP not DOWN; so I guess the writers are going to revisit this and answer the question of how Locke brought his father to the island. But since we haven't seen Locke bring his father to the island, does this mean that Locke in the new timeline will be the one to do this since in the timeline where Locke is still on the island he is dead?
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Bostonlost on February 06, 2010, 08:25:55 PM
This will help people also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KN6a8inOF8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEzRdZGYNvA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation


Michael Faraday Scientist who contributed to the fields of electromagnetism and electrochemistry.

Hugh Everett III (Mark Everett dad EELS ) was an American physicist who first proposed the many-worlds interpretation (MWI) of quantum physics, which he called his "relative state" formulation.
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Blitz Wing on February 07, 2010, 08:32:58 AM
Thanks for sharing those videos - double split is mind blowing.

Your or anyone else's take on how this could relate to Locke's father? I'll never forget Ben explaining to Locke that "you brought him here" when Locke asks just how his dad ended up on the island. This is also when Ben spoke of the Box.
.......

I'm not sure....but one thought does occur to me....Locke put Sawyer in a room (box) with Anthony Cooper. There's a chance Sawyer will kill Cooper, there's a chance Sawyer will not kill Cooper. Locke is outside waiting (I think listening too?). Locke doesn't know if Cooper is killed or not until he opens the door and looks in.

Could this be a reference to Schrödinger's Cat? I'll maybe have to rewatch the episode.

One thing I forgot to mention about Schrödinger's Cat & the Double Slit Experiment. Schrödinger's Cat is just a thought experiment to show how our thinking & understanding of Quantum Mechanics seems absurd when applied to "real world" objects. However from what I understand, the Double Slit Experiment has actually been performed and those were the result discovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_slit_experiment

Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Bostonlost on February 07, 2010, 12:01:11 PM
Thanks for sharing those videos - double split is mind blowing.

Your or anyone else's take on how this could relate to Locke's father? I'll never forget Ben explaining to Locke that "you brought him here" when Locke asks just how his dad ended up on the island. This is also when Ben spoke of the Box.
.......

I'm not sure....but one thought does occur to me....Locke put Sawyer in a room (box) with Anthony Cooper. There's a chance Sawyer will kill Cooper, there's a chance Sawyer will not kill Cooper. Locke is outside waiting (I think listening too?). Locke doesn't know if Cooper is killed or not until he opens the door and looks in.

Could this be a reference to Schrödinger's Cat? I'll maybe have to rewatch the episode.

One thing I forgot to mention about Schrödinger's Cat & the Double Slit Experiment. Schrödinger's Cat is just a thought experiment to show how our thinking & understanding of Quantum Mechanics seems absurd when applied to "real world" objects. However from what I understand, the Double Slit Experiment has actually been performed and those were the result discovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_slit_experiment

The thing that I always take away from double slit is when it is measured it seems to take on a life of it's own...

Then there is String theory....but maybe later
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: Madam P on February 08, 2010, 12:20:57 PM
Thanks for sharing those videos - double split is mind blowing.

Your or anyone else's take on how this could relate to Locke's father? I'll never forget Ben explaining to Locke that "you brought him here" when Locke asks just how his dad ended up on the island. This is also when Ben spoke of the Box.
.......

I'm not sure....but one thought does occur to me....Locke put Sawyer in a room (box) with Anthony Cooper. There's a chance Sawyer will kill Cooper, there's a chance Sawyer will not kill Cooper. Locke is outside waiting (I think listening too?). Locke doesn't know if Cooper is killed or not until he opens the door and looks in.

Could this be a reference to Schrödinger's Cat? I'll maybe have to rewatch the episode.


Really good catch, BlitzWing. 

I am still trying to figure out the whole "kill Anthony Cooper" thing.  Remember in this last episode (LA X) how shocked Ben looked when he was talking to Un-Locke -- "You brought me in here just to kill him."  Well, isn't that what Ben did to real-John Locke when he tried to get him to kill Anthony Cooper?  Why did Ben do that?  Had Jacob (or MIB?) gotten Ben to try something?  Was that an early attempt or a "practice run" on having an "alternate" assassin? 
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: opgelost on February 08, 2010, 01:57:39 PM
Pulled from Lostpedia:

Put in LOST terms, the lost people are both on the island (plane crashed) and off the island (plane never crashed) (to the viewer (outside the box)), until someone is able to peer inside and actually see what happened...in other words, one of the lost people is going to have to "open the box" (aka, find a way to see what actually happened) in order to reveal the true reality of the effect of the bomb. Therefore, the rest of the season will be showing us, the viewer, both POSSIBLE outcomes of what happened when the bomb went off (off the island vs. on the island) At some point someone (maybe Desmond) will have the ability to 'peer inside the box' and figure out which reality actually happened as a result of the bomb.

Didn't Hurley open the box with the numbers?
Title: Re: Schrödinger's cat theory as it might relate to Lost
Post by: jasond on February 12, 2010, 08:49:46 PM
Thanks for sharing those videos - double split is mind blowing.

Your or anyone else's take on how this could relate to Locke's father? I'll never forget Ben explaining to Locke that "you brought him here" when Locke asks just how his dad ended up on the island. This is also when Ben spoke of the Box.
.......

I'm not sure....but one thought does occur to me....Locke put Sawyer in a room (box) with Anthony Cooper. There's a chance Sawyer will kill Cooper, there's a chance Sawyer will not kill Cooper. Locke is outside waiting (I think listening too?). Locke doesn't know if Cooper is killed or not until he opens the door and looks in.

Could this be a reference to Schrödinger's Cat? I'll maybe have to rewatch the episode.

One thing I forgot to mention about Schrödinger's Cat & the Double Slit Experiment. Schrödinger's Cat is just a thought experiment to show how our thinking & understanding of Quantum Mechanics seems absurd when applied to "real world" objects. However from what I understand, the Double Slit Experiment has actually been performed and those were the result discovered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_slit_experiment



The Double Slit is a perfect example as well (seriously, everyone here should read Timeline by Crichton). Even when only one photon was put out at a time, the result was still as if they were interacting with each other.

There's also the quote by Eloise (sp?) about how the universe will correct itself. Things may still be headed in the same direction in the alternate timeline. Locke being able to walk again, Kate getting Aaron, etc.

I'm wondering if the final episode will just end with someone "opening the box" and the screen fading to black Soprano style. It will be up to us to determine what timeline was real.