Sledgeweb's Lost ... Stuff Forum

Episode Discussion (Spoiler Free) => Season 5 => Episode 5x13 => Topic started by: Walkabout V.2 on April 16, 2009, 08:12:06 AM

Title: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Walkabout V.2 on April 16, 2009, 08:12:06 AM
I am thoroughly confused right now. I am not a big Sci-Fi person and am struggling with the whole paradox issue because we were told by TPTB it wouldn't happen. So 2008 Miles standing 50 feet from 1977 Baby Miles isn't that a paradox? Somebody please help me.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Shakey on April 16, 2009, 08:21:20 AM
I believe one possible paradox would be if Miles baby-sat himself and accidentally caused himself to die.  He couldn't have grown up to come back to the island.  That's a paradox.  A better one would be if he'd cause Chang's death prior to the conception of Miles (he had three years to cause that).
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: WhatThe on April 16, 2009, 08:22:17 AM
Nah, a paradox is having two apparently contradictory things both exist as truths.

"Future" Miles standing 50 feet away from "past" Miles isn't a paradox...but "Future" Miles killing his father before he was conceived would be.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: WhatThe on April 16, 2009, 08:22:37 AM
Shakey just beat me to it lol...
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Shakey on April 16, 2009, 08:29:58 AM
Shakey just beat me to it lol...
I read the "Nah" and thought "Wait, I'm wrong???" LOL
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Walkabout V.2 on April 16, 2009, 08:36:24 AM
Nah, a paradox is having two apparently contradictory things both exist as truths.

"Future" Miles standing 50 feet away from "past" Miles isn't a paradox...but "Future" Miles killing his father before he was conceived would be.
So Baby Miles and Miles would have to come in physical contact with each other for a paradox to exsist?  Thanks for the help but now I feel as if the point of having Ben and Sun in 2008 is kind of wasted.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Shakey on April 16, 2009, 08:43:21 AM
I don't subscribe to the theory that you can't share space with yourself.  I don't think contact would be an issue.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: DaveJohnson on April 16, 2009, 09:05:52 AM
The conflict would be if baby Miles died. This would cause two mutually exclusive 'truths':

Baby Miles dies, and can therefore not grow up.
Grown up Miles is alive.

Obviously this is a contradiction - and is at the heart of the paradox.

Miles seeing or interacting with his baby self would not be a paradox - it might be weird, but it's older Miles interacting with young Miles. It hasn't forced any kind of contradiction.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Creflo on April 16, 2009, 09:07:31 AM
Only fools are enslaved by time and space.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Jungle Otter on April 16, 2009, 11:06:15 AM
A paradox is what we have on the island - Jack and Juliet  ;)
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: lostfromthestart on April 16, 2009, 11:36:01 AM
A paradox is what we have on the island - Jack and Juliet  ;)

get it?  pair of docs?  (rim shot) ouch!
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: lostfromthestart on April 16, 2009, 11:37:41 AM
I think if a character meets it younger self with both recognizing itself, we might have an issue.  Baby Miles is too young to make this connection, so it wouldn't happen here.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Bostonlost on April 16, 2009, 12:14:42 PM
If Ben tells someone that Charles would more is a liar....would he be telling the truth being a liar himself?
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: stimpygato on April 16, 2009, 12:38:45 PM
Speaking of paradoxes... what are they doing with the Dead Guy in the Orchid? Maybe experimenting with the time/space fly chamber on a cadaver ala Expeimental Bunny #15 that went 200ms into the future? ???
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Bostonlost on April 16, 2009, 12:44:04 PM
If Miles has to go back in time to save his dad so that Chang meets his mom and he is born that would be a paradox



I don't like calling two of the same people occupying the same space a paradox....Plus I don't think anything would happen
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: JBRam on April 16, 2009, 12:52:40 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Jungle Otter on April 16, 2009, 01:07:50 PM
Speaking of paradoxes... what are they doing with the Dead Guy in the Orchid? Maybe experimenting with the time/space fly chamber on a cadaver ala Expeimental Bunny #15 that went 200ms into the future? ???

perhaps they are going to test the effect of temporal "radiation" on the recently deceased....channel the dead so to speak
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: stimpygato on April 16, 2009, 01:13:47 PM
If Miles has to go back in time to save his dad so that Chang meets his mom and he is born that would be a paradox



I don't like calling two of the same people occupying the same space a paradox....Plus I don't think anything would happen

I think the producers of LOST are going to pursue this time/space angle in a very geeky way (I hope), maybe calling on some cool quantum physics such as SPOOKY ACTION...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance_(physics) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance_(physics))

PS: "The Third Policeman" was a ridiculously fun forray into theoretical physics... one of my favorites of the LOST LIBRARY. Everyone who likes theorizing here should check it out! (Flan O'Brian's other book "At Swim Two Birds" is also a great, and makes your brain turn inside-out)
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Walkabout V.2 on April 16, 2009, 01:57:33 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Shakey on April 16, 2009, 02:00:42 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Novashannon on April 16, 2009, 02:11:09 PM
Yes.  Time travel works in a fictional setting as long as the  concept remains true to the rules of its existence - just like any other fictional construct. 
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Walkabout V.2 on April 16, 2009, 02:15:50 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Creflo on April 16, 2009, 02:19:40 PM
A paradox will have only occurred if a decision made by, say, the 1977 characters alters what has already been established.  For example, if Hurley was successful in changing the script to Empire Strikes Back, then his motivation for doing so would not exist.

Every action that every character is making in 1977 has always been the way it always happened.  Miles always saw himself as a baby.

There is no vagueness about W.H.H.  It's a great way to avoid paradox and complication.  Sayid always shot Ben in the chest (because he thought he could change history) and Ben was always taken to The Temple for brain washing.  If anyone makes any effort to change history, they are just playing their role in history.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 16, 2009, 02:20:51 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.

This is possible but I think in the context of lost what they are trying to present is that hey will die by Gassing not some other means,

Desmond was able to prevent charlie dying a certain way even though he would still die,  If our losties attempt to change the outcome then yes I would think that the DI would still be killed off, perhaps in a gun battle and not gassing (ms hawking saud fate course corrects)  but in this case the universe cant course correct because its course has already played out,  In mrs hawkings example (Mr red shoes) he did die by getting crushed, had she attempted to prevent that he would have been hit by a Bus, but alas she did not try that. Desmond saving Charlie was in the (desmond and charlies) present,  so he could change the way charlie died but charlie ultimately still died, and the purge (for our losties is in the past) already happened or will happen and cant be changed no matter what they do we know this because in 2004 they had been dead for 12 years.

Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Shakey on April 16, 2009, 02:35:53 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: BurkRoyer on April 16, 2009, 02:48:58 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).

So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 16, 2009, 02:53:00 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

Why did he have to be a baby without his older self seeing him,

he always did, obviously if baby miles were old enough to think coherently he would remember had he seen miles thru the window.
Thee is no looping around,

Think of it like this,

This is what happened and what they mean by whatever happened happened. they are just showing what happened.

Instead of a Loop lets just say that they have come back from 2007 and are an active part of history, perhaps they get back to the future (ha) at some point, I am not one of the writers but from what I have been shown since the show started is that we are only seeing what happened
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Creflo on April 16, 2009, 02:53:36 PM
Quote
I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.

Not according to Lost story-telling.  In 1976, baby Miles is conceived.  In 1977, he is nursing and some older guy who nobody knows is staring into the window and crying.  30+ years later, Miles is taken back to that place and time to fulfill his role in history.  It always happened.

Another example, if Sayid had not shown up in 1977 and shot Ben, Ben would've never been taken to The Temple for indoctrination to become the sneaky bastard he always was to have become.

History is written and cannot be changed.  There's nothing complicated about the fact that the established history includes displaced time travelers playing their part.

Quote
So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?

That's a good point and the reason for his trepidation remains to be seen.  Seeing oneself is often cited as a dangerous proposition in time travel sci-fi, but it is not necessarily a paradox unless one tries to change history.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: tonysee200x on April 16, 2009, 02:55:28 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).

So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?

Maybe because they were just learning and did not really understand it yet? Better safe then sorry???
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 16, 2009, 02:59:53 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).

So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?

Maybe because they were just learning and did not really understand it yet? Better safe then sorry???

Took the thought right out of my head.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: stimpygato on April 16, 2009, 03:00:46 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 16, 2009, 03:22:35 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.

I think he used aliases so that if he were approached by some in the Dharma initiative, he would know where they had been assigned based on the name they address him with,  that way he would not reveal any info that cettain people or groups should not know?
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: BurkRoyer on April 16, 2009, 03:24:56 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.

I think he used aliases so that if he were approached by some in the Dharma initiative, he would know where they had been assigned based on the name they address him with,  that way he would not reveal any info that cettain people or groups should not know?

That's a lot of quotes!

Definitely not separate realities...
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: lostandfree on April 16, 2009, 03:27:45 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.

I think he used aliases so that if he were approached by some in the Dharma initiative, he would know where they had been assigned based on the name they address him with,  that way he would not reveal any info that cettain people or groups should not know?

That's a lot of quotes!

Definitely not separate realities...

Okay, new contest.  How many quoted quotes can we get into one thread?
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: stimpygato on April 16, 2009, 03:32:54 PM

Definitely not separate realities...

I try to avoid using "definitely" when theorizing anything LOST, but I also like SQUIRT199's take on the reasoning.  ;D

I think he used aliases so that if he were approached by some in the Dharma initiative, he would know where they had been assigned based on the name they address him with,  that way he would not reveal any info that cettain people or groups should not know?
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Novashannon on April 16, 2009, 03:37:09 PM
A paradox will have only occurred if a decision made by, say, the 1977 characters alters what has already been established.  For example, if Hurley was successful in changing the script to Empire Strikes Back, then his motivation for doing so would not exist.

Every action that every character is making in 1977 has always been the way it always happened.  Miles always saw himself as a baby.

There is no vagueness about W.H.H.  It's a great way to avoid paradox and complication.  Sayid always shot Ben in the chest (because he thought he could change history) and Ben was always taken to The Temple for brain washing.  If anyone makes any effort to change history, they are just playing their role in history.


That's how I see it, too.  Very straight-forward and understandable.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: stimpygato on April 16, 2009, 03:42:49 PM
As stated,
I see the paradox issue as .
apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel
But some folks are
behind that because at some point 
This thread needs more
aliases so that
a lot of
separate realities...
into one thread?
[/quote]


YES WE CAN!!! ;D
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: BobBX542 on April 16, 2009, 05:13:56 PM
Here is the Merriam-webster Definition

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paradox

And here is a good example...



The statement below this line is completely true
The statement above this line is false



Basicaly, it's a contradictory statement. Or situation when you're talking about time travel.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Novashannon on April 16, 2009, 06:38:20 PM
GMTA, I was going to post the definition, too.  By that definition, Miles the baby being in the same time as MIles the Freightie is indeed a paradox, because one contradicts the other.  Actually, I think time travel is by nature a paradox. 
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: opgelost on April 16, 2009, 06:47:06 PM
Quote
What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".

He did too many timetravelexperiments and now exists four times in the same time and has to use different names to understand who he is and has to watch out that they don't touch each other or they will all explode.  :D
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: lostlady on April 16, 2009, 06:47:38 PM

[/quote]

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.
[/quote]

This theory goes along with the course correction idea. Desmond couldn't stop Charlie from dying. He was going to die. However, the way he died is changed. I like this idea. It means the Losties can and probably are changing some things but the outcome (whatever that may be) will always be the same.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: DaveJohnson on April 16, 2009, 06:48:35 PM
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).

So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?

Because he didn't want the bunny to go: "WTF OMG iz dat me?"

Leading to emerging sentience in the bunny race.

Leading to the eventually overthrow of humans by super-intelligent time travelling numbered bunnies.

At least that's how I figure it  ;D
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: sledgeweb on April 16, 2009, 09:26:23 PM
Chang could be upset about the two bunnies, because any time you ring two identical entities from separate time-spaces together, there is the possibility for a paradox to occur, resulting in the complete collapse of the atomic structure of the universe, simultaneously completely rendering all matter non-existent. Including the entire planet earth, and every thing that lives. Miles being in the presence of his baby self isn't a paradox, but the fact that he is there opens up the classical paradox scenarios of killing himself as a baby, etc. The two bunnies appearing together wasn't a paradox, obviously - because nothing bad happened, but Chang was concerned about the potential of a paradox - if the future bunny shot the past bunny, for example - so he quickly ordered that the bunnies be separated and not allowed to see each other. Maybe? Just a thought.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Novashannon on April 16, 2009, 09:36:29 PM
According to the definition in the online dictionaries, Sledge, Miles being in two places at once does constitute a paradox.  In this instance, the paradox in itself does not seem destructive, b ut would need an active paradox, such as causing your father's death before you are conceived, to be a problem.  I don't think that can occur in this application, because tptb have stipulated that whatever happened, happened.  Of course, they have reneged on their premises before.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: hyperform on April 16, 2009, 10:59:28 PM
a paradox would be if young Ben would have died from the gun shot wound, while still existing in the future.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: sledgeweb on April 16, 2009, 11:07:01 PM
What dictionary entry are you using Novashannon? For standard use, a Paradox in time travel can simply be stated as being a contradiction in reality. If I go back in time and shoot my father before I'm born, then I could not have been born and grown up and gone back in time and shot my father. That scenario creates a contradiction in logic and reality. What is not a paradox, is if I go back in time to when I was a baby and rock myself to sleep. In that scenario, I still grow up to go back in time to rock myself asleep. There is no contradiction. And, in the rules that LOST is presenting, that would have always happened. Now, in other time travel situations, a paradox may be defined differently... like, going back in time at all creates a sort of paradox which creates a new timeline. But this doesn't seem to be the case with LOST.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: opgelost on April 17, 2009, 04:42:48 AM
For me a paradox is when something never got invented.
For example I study Einstein in 2009 and than travel back and teach Einstein
the theory of relativity, so that he can write it down and I can study it in 2009.

Daniel sending Desmond to Oxford in 1996 to give him the settings of his timetravelstuff
from his book in 2004, so that he in 1996 can note that numbers in his book is a paradox.
He never invented them, just told them to himself from the future.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Creflo on April 17, 2009, 09:15:51 AM
opgelost:  What you describe is as close to a paradox as they've allowed in Lost, but for me it only dances on the edge of paradoxical...ness?

I like to call these instances self-fulfilling prophesies.  In essence, your Einstein example and Oxford example represent things (in this case, ideas) which exist without ever having been created.  It could be argued that Einstein or Oxford-Dan had the ideas first, then they were taught the ideas by a traveler in a time before they had invented them.  But in Lost, whatever happens happened.  So there was never a time when Dan worked out the settings himself, he always had been given the info by Desmond...unless one allows for multiple realities.  And we're told to not allow for these.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: shadow on April 17, 2009, 12:19:06 PM
This goes back to my post about "Lost" time (http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=9165.0) in the "Whatever Happened, Happened" forum.

The graphic I posted there show time as a two-dimensional construct, not linear:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3628/3406396905_3be50db8fa.jpg?v=0)

The Losties perceive time as linear motion going from simply from left-to-right in the graph. However, their actual movement is in two-dimensional spacetime. In fact, with the except of a "flash", the movement of any character will always be down, and to the right on this plane. A "flash" merely pucks them from their current position in the plane and moves drops them to a new location. So far, I think that all flashes we've seen show only a "horizontal" movement in the plane (the colored dashed lines) and that we've seen no evidence that a Lostie can move "up" the diagram.

What this means is that Miles (3 years old) and Miles (33ish years old) can and do exist in the same year without paradox. The simple fact that Miles-33 exists proves that Miles-3 will survive and nothing that Miles-33 tries to change will affect Miles-3 survival. If Miles-33 did try to create a paradox, something will happen (or, more accurately, has happened) to stop him.

The correllary to this is that regardless of what time frame you are in, if your current existence is represented at the lowest point in the diagram of any of your "existences", then your survival is not guaranteed and your death is not a paradox.

For example, in the diagram, there is a dashed line at 1977. In this time frame, the following people are represented:

Hurley-1+ months
Miles-3 Years
Ben-14ish years
Hurely-30 years
Miles-34 years

Hurley-1, Miles-3, and Ben-14 cannot die (otherwise, you would have a paradox).
Hurely-30 and Miles-34, however, can.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: DaveJohnson on April 17, 2009, 12:38:22 PM
Shadow - perfect... really, just perfect.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: shadow on April 17, 2009, 01:15:03 PM
The simple fact that Miles-33 exists proves that Miles-3 will survive and nothing that Miles-33 tries to change will affect Miles-3 survival.

Quick correction here.

This should say that nothing Miles-33 does will cause Miles-3 to die. In fact, we are 100% sure that Miles-3 survives to become Miles-33. However, Miles-33 could take actions (including causing his own death) that would SAVE Miles-3.

Thus, to say that "Miles-33 cannot affect Miles-3 survival" is wrong.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: SQUIRT199 on April 17, 2009, 01:20:48 PM
Makes perfect sense
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Novashannon on April 17, 2009, 02:19:40 PM
What dictionary entry are you using Novashannon? For standard use, a Paradox in time travel can simply be stated as being a contradiction in reality. If I go back in time and shoot my father before I'm born, then I could not have been born and grown up and gone back in time and shot my father. That scenario creates a contradiction in logic and reality. What is not a paradox, is if I go back in time to when I was a baby and rock myself to sleep. In that scenario, I still grow up to go back in time to rock myself asleep. There is no contradiction. And, in the rules that LOST is presenting, that would have always happened. Now, in other time travel situations, a paradox may be defined differently... like, going back in time at all creates a sort of paradox which creates a new timeline. But this doesn't seem to be the case with LOST.

I looked online at onelook.com, which has several dictionaries.  I think the one I chose was marriam-Webster.  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paradox

Prior to reading that, I defined it more as you do.  I don't think the given definition contradicts the LOST time travel experience.  Having a time paradox does not mean that anything gets screwed up, because, in LOST reality, whatever happned, heappened. 
being at the same time as both a baby and an adult is a contradiction, or paradox, but not a time-altering one.  Shooting ones dad and preventing ones own birth, so that you could not have gone back and shot y our dad, is a time-altering paradox, which is impossible.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: BobBX542 on April 17, 2009, 03:37:52 PM
GMTA, I was going to post the definition, too.  By that definition, Miles the baby being in the same time as MIles the Freightie is indeed a paradox, because one contradicts the other.  Actually, I think time travel is by nature a paradox. 

I agree with your last part about Time Travel itself is a paradox (kind of), but Future Miles being present in the same time as Past Miles isn't in itself a paradox, because neither one could stop the other.

Chang could be upset about the two bunnies, because any time you ring two identical entities from separate time-spaces together, there is the possibility for a paradox to occur, resulting in the complete collapse of the atomic structure of the universe, simultaneously completely rendering all matter non-existent. Including the entire planet earth, and every thing that lives. Miles being in the presence of his baby self isn't a paradox, but the fact that he is there opens up the classical paradox scenarios of killing himself as a baby, etc. The two bunnies appearing together wasn't a paradox, obviously - because nothing bad happened, but Chang was concerned about the potential of a paradox - if the future bunny shot the past bunny, for example - so he quickly ordered that the bunnies be separated and not allowed to see each other. Maybe? Just a thought.

Time Cop fan are we sledge??

As for these two below...

What is not a paradox, is if I go back in time to when I was a baby and rock myself to sleep. In that scenario, I still grow up to go back in time to rock myself asleep.

For me a paradox is when something never got invented.
For example I study Einstein in 2009 and than travel back and teach Einstein
the theory of relativity, so that he can write it down and I can study it in 2009.

Daniel sending Desmond to Oxford in 1996 to give him the settings of his timetravelstuff
from his book in 2004, so that he in 1996 can note that numbers in his book is a paradox.
He never invented them, just told them to himself from the future.

I respectfully disagree. It seems to me that a paradox would be if you do anything to affect the other version of yourself at all. Even something as simple as rocking yourself to sleep as a child.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Walkabout V.2 on April 17, 2009, 10:00:49 PM
This goes back to my post about "Lost" time (http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=9165.0) in the "Whatever Happened, Happened" forum.

The graphic I posted there show time as a two-dimensional construct, not linear:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3628/3406396905_3be50db8fa.jpg?v=0)

The Losties perceive time as linear motion going from simply from left-to-right in the graph. However, their actual movement is in two-dimensional spacetime. In fact, with the except of a "flash", the movement of any character will always be down, and to the right on this plane. A "flash" merely pucks them from their current position in the plane and moves drops them to a new location. So far, I think that all flashes we've seen show only a "horizontal" movement in the plane (the colored dashed lines) and that we've seen no evidence that a Lostie can move "up" the diagram.

What this means is that Miles (3 years old) and Miles (33ish years old) can and do exist in the same year without paradox. The simple fact that Miles-33 exists proves that Miles-3 will survive and nothing that Miles-33 tries to change will affect Miles-3 survival. If Miles-33 did try to create a paradox, something will happen (or, more accurately, has happened) to stop him.

The correllary to this is that regardless of what time frame you are in, if your current existence is represented at the lowest point in the diagram of any of your "existences", then your survival is not guaranteed and your death is not a paradox.

For example, in the diagram, there is a dashed line at 1977. In this time frame, the following people are represented:

Hurley-1+ months
Miles-3 Years
Ben-14ish years
Hurely-30 years
Miles-34 years

Hurley-1, Miles-3, and Ben-14 cannot die (otherwise, you would have a paradox).
Hurely-30 and Miles-34, however, can.
Will everyone be pissed if I say I just don't get it? Actually this is good as it will get for me. I understand that we are discussing a fictional topic, time travel, because Bob is right that all things linked to it are both theoretical and teeter closer to paradoxal than not. But I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread for giving me an opportunity to better understand the Sci-Fi nature of the show. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading every word.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Maxor127 on April 17, 2009, 10:02:50 PM
Journeyman Project > Time Cop.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: IFP on April 18, 2009, 03:24:17 AM
There are many types of paradoxes (paradoxii?) but the only one we are witnessing on LOST is the Predestination Paradox.
Yes, it is a paradox, even though what happened happened. It's a loop of causality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox)

Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: WhatThe on April 18, 2009, 03:32:51 AM
I respectfully disagree. It seems to me that a paradox would be if you do anything to affect the other version of yourself at all. Even something as simple as rocking yourself to sleep as a chiled.

But within the time travel philosophy presented on Lost, whatever affect you had on the other, younger version of yourself was always a part of your younger version's existence. So it wouldn't be a paradox.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: WhatThe on April 18, 2009, 03:34:16 AM
This goes back to my post about "Lost" time (http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=9165.0) in the "Whatever Happened, Happened" forum.

The graphic I posted there show time as a two-dimensional construct, not linear:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3628/3406396905_3be50db8fa.jpg?v=0)

I like your explanation and the chart really illustrates what Miles was trying to tell Hurley (and us).
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: WhatThe on April 18, 2009, 03:39:57 AM
There are many types of paradoxes (paradoxii?) but the only one we are witnessing on LOST is the Predestination Paradox.
Yes, it is a paradox, even though what happened happened. It's a loop of causality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox)



That's a good page to read. I also think that the paradox mentioned about Lost that will apparently never happen is not the type that we're witnessing (and that your link explains). Those paradoxes are ok within the realm of Lost because they follow the logic of "whatever happened, happened".
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Novashannon on April 18, 2009, 01:48:14 PM
GMTA, I was going to post the definition, too.  By that definition, Miles the baby being in the same time as MIles the Freightie is indeed a paradox, because one contradicts the other.  Actually, I think time travel is by nature a paradox. 

I agree with your last part about Time Travel itself is a paradox (kind of), but Future Miles being present in the same time as Past Miles isn't in itself a paradox, because neither one could stop the other.

Chang could be upset about the two bunnies, because any time you ring two identical entities from separate time-spaces together, there is the possibility for a paradox to occur, resulting in the complete collapse of the atomic structure of the universe, simultaneously completely rendering all matter non-existent. Including the entire planet earth, and every thing that lives. Miles being in the presence of his baby self isn't a paradox, but the fact that he is there opens up the classical paradox scenarios of killing himself as a baby, etc. The two bunnies appearing together wasn't a paradox, obviously - because nothing bad happened, but Chang was concerned about the potential of a paradox - if the future bunny shot the past bunny, for example - so he quickly ordered that the bunnies be separated and not allowed to see each other. Maybe? Just a thought.

Time Cop fan are we sledge??

As for these two below...

What is not a paradox, is if I go back in time to when I was a baby and rock myself to sleep. In that scenario, I still grow up to go back in time to rock myself asleep.

For me a paradox is when something never got invented.
For example I study Einstein in 2009 and than travel back and teach Einstein
the theory of relativity, so that he can write it down and I can study it in 2009.

Daniel sending Desmond to Oxford in 1996 to give him the settings of his timetravelstuff
from his book in 2004, so that he in 1996 can note that numbers in his book is a paradox.
He never invented them, just told them to himself from the future.

I respectfully disagree. It seems to me that a paradox would be if you do anything to affect the other version of yourself at all. Even something as simple as rocking yourself to sleep as a chiled.

I agreed with you, until I actualloy went and looked up the definition of "paradox."  Basically, a paradox is a self-contradiction (www.onelook.com).  I looked in several dictionaries and they all basically said that.  Being in the same time period at two different ages is aa self-contradiction.  Normally, we humans exist in one time at one age.  We live life in a linear fashion.  Being a paradox does not necessariloy threaten the space-time continuum.  Thus, merely existing in the same time twice is a benevolent paradox , or one that does not make any difference.Killing Miles as a baby would be a malevolent paradox, and threaten the future.  That is how I see it, based on the dictionery def of paradox.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: shadow on April 18, 2009, 06:51:08 PM
I agreed with you, until I actualloy went and looked up the definition of "paradox."  Basically, a paradox is a self-contradiction (www.onelook.com).  I looked in several dictionaries and they all basically said that.  Being in the same time period at two different ages is aa self-contradiction.

If you assume that time is absolutely linear, then you have a case that it is a contradiction. However, by the mere fact that there is time travel in the Lostverse, calling it "absolutely linear" cannot be true.

If you assume that Lostverse time is two dimensional, then nothing precludes a person from existing in the same timeframe at two different points in their life. So far, I don't think anything we've learned has contradicted a two-dimensional time theory.

"Shadow," you begin, " Daniel said that time is like a street..."

Yes, that is true, the perception of the passage of time to the Lostversians is like a street, but their perception is merely the projection of movement in space time along the "time" axis (the 'x' axis in my graph).

There is a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIadtFJYWhw) of Carl Sagan explaining "Flatland" and the perception of dimension when you project from a greater the lesser dimension ... in the case of Flatland, how a 3 dimensional object is perceived in a 2d world.

By the same token, valid movement within a 2d plane projected onto a single dimension might make such movement appear as non-valid to those "stuck" in that one dimension.

Then again, I am just as likely to be completely wrong.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: Novashannon on April 19, 2009, 04:56:55 PM
I agreed with you, until I actualloy went and looked up the definition of "paradox."  Basically, a paradox is a self-contradiction (www.onelook.com).  I looked in several dictionaries and they all basically said that.  Being in the same time period at two different ages is aa self-contradiction.

If you assume that time is absolutely linear, then you have a case that it is a contradiction. However, by the mere fact that there is time travel in the Lostverse, calling it "absolutely linear" cannot be true.

If you assume that Lostverse time is two dimensional, then nothing precludes a person from existing in the same timeframe at two different points in their life. So far, I don't think anything we've learned has contradicted a two-dimensional time theory.

"Shadow," you begin, " Daniel said that time is like a street..."

Yes, that is true, the perception of the passage of time to the Lostversians is like a street, but their perception is merely the projection of movement in space time along the "time" axis (the 'x' axis in my graph).

There is a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIadtFJYWhw) of Carl Sagan explaining "Flatland" and the perception of dimension when you project from a greater the lesser dimension ... in the case of Flatland, how a 3 dimensional object is perceived in a 2d world.

By the same token, valid movement within a 2d plane projected onto a single dimension might make such movement appear as non-valid to those "stuck" in that one dimension.

Then again, I am just as likely to be completely wrong.
LOl - we are all likely to be wrong, as it is all fictional!   
I think, however, that the events till qualify as a paradox, because it is contrary to the way normal time runs.  Most ordinary mortals live life in a linear fashion.  Any other way creates a paradox.  I do accept time travel and the premise of it, but it still, by defini tion, constituesa paradox.
Title: Re: What is a Paradox?
Post by: The_Hatch_Monkey on April 20, 2009, 12:46:13 AM
If Ben tells someone that Charles would more is a liar....would he be telling the truth being a liar himself?

Charles would more....what?
Charles would more...than likely be truthfully lying?


Charles Would more. 

I couldn't help myself.