Author Topic: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?  (Read 3624 times)

Offline Holland34

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Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« on: May 20, 2009, 03:43:44 AM »
If Ben never met Jacob before this episode, how do we know that Jacob was the one that was giving Ben instructions all this time?  Could it be AJ / Man-in-Black (MIB) / Esau / Evil dude / etc and Richard manipulating the guy who thought he was the master manipulater all this time?  Setting Ben up to take the fall???

Also, is it possible that Ben has never been the real leader of the Others and that is why he was never able to meet Jacob?

My apologies to all those who lover our guyliner man!

Offline james_sawyer

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2009, 04:31:39 AM »
untill now i thought only ben has met jacob but apparently the richard has also met him but its unlikely that richard is manipulating ben it is other way round , because richard says somthing like only one leader can go and see jacob maybe richard and ben never went together  to meet him if they had , then ben's lie would have been found out ....jacob has kept ignoring ben till now maybe he doesnt like him or trust him ....who is to say ben didnt just do what he wanted and tell everyone that jacob gave him instructions to do so ..what i would like to know is , were widmore or hawking able to see jacob becoz they seem to be the leaders in 77

 but i still think richard is not the bad guy why else would illana bring him locke's body to him and why else would he be the only person to know the password to the question .


Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2009, 01:08:29 PM »
Holland, I was thinking the same thing, except... with Richard being less evil. lol! If Richard is the one who gets orders from Jacob, I think it's possible that it was always the Dark Man and not Jacob giving Richard the orders. I think that the Dark Man (sorry, I just like the reference to The Stand rather than Biblical or Will-Smith, lol!) was the one living in the cabin for some time, he was the one that Locke saw, and he spoke through Christian. Maybe even it wasn't Jacob that Richard EVER saw, maybe it was always the other guy. Maybe the Dark Man is the one that made Richard ageless, but always asked to be called Jacob.  ??? We need a timeline of which whiteshirt/blackshirt guy was where at what time, and who Richard actually saw...

but those are answers we're not gonna get.  :-\ Possibly ever.

Offline Holland34

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2009, 01:40:27 PM »
but i still think richard is not the bad guy why else would illana bring him locke's body to him and why else would he be the only person to know the password to the question .

In Ben's conversation with Jacob, he talked about all the things he had done for Jacob... the lists, etc., without ever seeing him.  I think someone was giving Ben instructions... the question is who.  If I understood correctly, he was receiving those instructions via Richard... so either Richard was being used to manipulate Ben (with or without Richard's knowledge) or Richard was manipulating Ben himself.  If it was someone else, was it Jacob or "the Dark Man" (I'm good with that, Mrs. A... The Stand is one of my favorite books)?

As for Ilana bringing Locke's body and Richard knowing the password, there's nothing to say that both Richard AND Ilana are working for "the bad guys" and that is how they are identifying each other.

Holland, I was thinking the same thing, except... with Richard being less evil. lol! If Richard is the one who gets orders from Jacob, I think it's possible that it was always the Dark Man and not Jacob giving Richard the orders. I think that the Dark Man (sorry, I just like the reference to The Stand rather than Biblical or Will-Smith, lol!) was the one living in the cabin for some time, he was the one that Locke saw, and he spoke through Christian. Maybe even it wasn't Jacob that Richard EVER saw, maybe it was always the other guy. Maybe the Dark Man is the one that made Richard ageless, but always asked to be called Jacob.  ??? We need a timeline of which whiteshirt/blackshirt guy was where at what time, and who Richard actually saw...

but those are answers we're not gonna get.  :-\ Possibly ever.

I am actually quite on board with this, Mrs. A... at least as a strong possibility.  (I feel like the stereotypical guy... hard to commit to any theory these days.)  Part of me can't help but imagine a Jacob - Dark Man battle over Richard's soul and Dark Man wins by making him ageless.  So many unanswered questions... ARGH!!!

Offline lostlady

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2009, 09:46:29 PM »
I don't think Richard is working with black shirt guy. He wanted to stop Loophole Locke from bringing Ben to see Jacob at the statue. If he had been working with him he wouldn't have said what he said. I think that scene was to show the audience that something was not quite right (foreshadowing) and Richard was not a part of it.

Also, Jacob went to see Illana in the hospital and asked her for help. I am guessing he gave the question of 'Who lies in the shadow..' to her so she would have a safe way of knowing who she could trust. In this case it seems to be Richard who had the answer so it would imply that he, Jacob, and Illana are working together.

Offline razzle-dazzle

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2009, 01:30:52 PM »
I think Jacob is used for excuses to do things. Richard lied to Widmore and said that Jacob wanted little Ben saved. Richard took Ben to the Temple.
We saw Smokey in the temple. Most people assume Smokey is the dark shirt guy or works for him. I am not so sure.
Ben has lied and used Jacob before too. We know Ben never saw Jacob.

I think Richard knows who Jacob is, because he took Locke to meet him. I gathered Richard isn't all that happy with Jacob, but I don't think he is working against him. In some ways Richard is the "man behind the curtain" manipulating the Others. I really don't think Jacob gets that involved with the Others.
He feel he believes in free will.

I do feel Alanna is working for Jacob, and she was told to meet Richard.

Until we get a Richard flashback, we will be pretty much in the dark with him. I am really hoping the first episode of Season 6 is a Richard flashback, with him meeting Jacob and Jacob offering Richard eternal life in exchange for something.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2009, 03:10:23 PM »
I think Richard got eternal life, because he is the only one that passed smokey's judgementtest.
To become an other, you have to be a good person.
The 9 people from the list were on Jacob's list, because they were good people and now they got a better life.
I think to become the spokesman of Jacob you have to be a really, really, really good person.
Smokey decides if you are good enough.


Offline Monalisa

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2009, 03:31:18 AM »
But wait a minute.  Ben passed Smokey's test...  Does that mean Ben is a good guy?

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2009, 08:22:43 AM »
But wait a minute.  Ben passed Smokey's test...  Does that mean Ben is a good guy?

No Ben was being used - if you think about this - and I am glad you posted this.  Locke brings Ben to the temple but tells him that he is not entering in the normal way.  We can see now why Ben was having a did I stain my undies moment. 

How would Locke know to go under the temple? Ben, being an other and told about the under belly of the temple, knew.
Sorry it was so obvious the behavior in Locke bringing Ben there he was being manipulated then.  Ben's own fears and whatever lore's he had been fed were making him fearful.

So in fact yes, Richard like the island is duplicitous and has a reason for doing what he does.



Offline Novashannon

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2009, 06:01:07 PM »
I think Richard is just trying to do the right things.  I think that, apart from being immortal, he is fairly human and definitely not omniscient.  I do think he talks to JAcob. 

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2009, 07:07:40 PM »
This is a bit of an aside, but it's about Richard, Jacob, Abaddon, Juliet and Locke...

Richard recruited Juliet and attempted to recruit the teenage Locke to his school for gifted students (or whatever it was)... None of the other Losties were sought-out by Richard were they?

I know that old Locke told Richard to seek out young Locke, but I'm sure that the final decision was in Jacob's hands.

I wonder if Abaddon was Black Shirt's equivalent of Richard? You know, he recruited people like Richard did.

There was a point to this post, but I've lost my train of thought. lol

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2009, 08:20:53 PM »
This is a bit of an aside, but it's about Richard, Jacob, Abaddon, Juliet and Locke...

Richard recruited Juliet and attempted to recruit the teenage Locke to his school for gifted students (or whatever it was)... None of the other Losties were sought-out by Richard were they?

I know that old Locke told Richard to seek out young Locke, but I'm sure that the final decision was in Jacob's hands.

I wonder if Abaddon was Black Shirt's equivalent of Richard? You know, he recruited people like Richard did.

There was a point to this post, but I've lost my train of thought. lol

Yeah, but I thought Ben really wanted Juliette not as much Richard good points even if you lost that train....
Nice to see you Mango!  How is life treating you?

Offline Madam P

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2009, 09:02:40 PM »
Yes, that's a good thought, there, Mango, about Abbadon/Man No. 2 being the equivalent of Richard/Jacob.  Hmmm.  Interesting.   Abbadon said "I get people to where they're supposed to be."  Richard kind of does the same.  Hmmm.

Get another ticket on that train -- it might be going somewhere!

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2009, 07:39:23 AM »
Nice to see you Mango!  How is life treating you?

I'm good! Really good!!!  :)

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Has Richard been manipulating Ben all this time?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2009, 08:07:45 AM »
Nice to see you Mango!  How is life treating you?

I'm good! Really good!!!  :)

Oh that makes me happy to hear that.  Guess that is why we are not seeing you huh? 
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