Author Topic: Jacob and Esau  (Read 16750 times)

Offline RM

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The rules for Jacob and [Esau]
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2009, 02:05:41 AM »
So is this is all two higher beings playing some kind of game?  That fits in very much with the way the Greeks saw "fate" and the will of the gods -- that the misfortunes of man were often just consequences of the whims of the gods (i.e., not necessarily some pre-scripted plan that leads to individual salvation/damnation based on how pure is your faith).

If that's what this is, what are the rules they're playing by?

Jacob seems to visit our Losties as himself (but incognito), touches them, and plants a suggestive philosophy about which way to choose to act, but he is very much leaving them to exercise their free will.

[Esau] seems to appear as a supernatural apparition giving a specific direct order leaving them to believe that there's a particular way they're "supposed to" go, "giving up" their free will by doing what they think the gods want.

The nature of time/history (the prepressed record that course-corrects any small free will changes) seems to be a given that exists outside the control of Jacob and [Esau].

[Esau]'s finding a way to kill Jacob just seems to be an out to stop playing the game altogether.  For whatever reason -- I can believe it's an oath -- he can't do it directly himself.

Offline mushermellon

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Re: The rules for Jacob and [Esau]
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2009, 02:17:50 AM »
ok, read somewhere on here that the tapestry Jacob was weaving said at the top something like may the Gods give you your heart's desire...thinking of how this links with what Ben said when he had Locke's father with him about the anaology of a big box where you could have whatever you imagined (paraphrase).  Could some of this be that the island is lke The Secret, that the people coming manifest what they think/dream/fear?

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Jacob and Esau
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2009, 12:52:34 PM »
ok, read somewhere on here that the tapestry Jacob was weaving said at the top something like may the Gods give you your heart's desire...thinking of how this links with what Ben said when he had Locke's father with him about the anaology of a big box where you could have whatever you imagined (paraphrase).  Could some of this be that the island is lke The Secret, that the people coming manifest what they think/dream/fear?

You know how mad that would make me if LOST was just some big allegory for "The Secret." LOL

Offline griffinx1

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Jacob and "Esau" (man in black) - Just who are they?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2009, 09:28:51 PM »
Ok, so we know from the opening scene that Jacob and "the man in black" (who some of us refer to as Esau) are at odds with one another. They are talking about the coming of the ship, how they found the island, proving each other wrong, mankind and progress, "the man in black" wanting to kill Jacob, the loophole, etc.

I've been concentrating so hard on the Egyptian tie-ins that the Greek Mythology tie-ins never came up - until now. We have seen the tapestry that Jacob was weaving, some have noted Greek and Egyptian writing. Plus, there is the whole Latin speaking deal...interesting.

It seems like the producers, in an attempt to keep people digging and looking, have almost made us focus on the Egyptian symbols and tie-ins. We've seen glyphs, writing, statues, etc from the beginning. We've heard Smokey "the black smoke monster" referred to as "Cerberus" (in the Lost Experience ARG). But what about Greek Mythology?

So I started doing some digging and cracking all those old Greek Mythology books. It turns out (and remember the candy bar kiddies - Apollo) that there is a story of two brothers - Prometheus and Epimetheus. It's kind of ineteresting in that Epimetheus (meaning literally hind-thought, but in the manner of a fool looking behind, while running forward) and Prometheus (foresight, literally fore-thought), were a pair of Titans who "acted as representatives of mankind". They were the inseparable sons of Iapetus (sounds a lot like Lupidas), who in other contexts was the father of Atlas. While Prometheus is characterized as ingenious and clever, Epimetheus is depicted as foolish.

These twin Titans were entrusted with distributing the traits among the newly-created animals; Epimetheus was responsible for giving a positive trait to every animal, but when it was time to give man a positive trait, lacking foresight he found that there was nothing left. His brother Prometheus then bestowed upon man the image and stature of the gods.

The story goes on that Prometheus stole fire from Olympus and was punished by Zeus. He was immortal so they chained him to a mountain and each day an eagle ate his liver. Of course he never died. As punishment to Man, Zeus created Pandora, the first woman, for Epimetheus, knowing that he would fall in love with her despite the warnings of his brother, the embodiment of "foresight", who told him never to accept a gift from the Olympian gods, with whom the primordial Titans, sprung from Mother Earth, were ever at odds.

I'm a firm believer that these two, whoever they are, have been around a long, long time going back and forth and are at odds with one another. I do not know who is "good" and who is "evil" since they both have a sort of calm demeanor about them - both kind of sure and cocky. They have most likely been here since before the Greek and Egyptian times. Almost like time travelers or aliens from another planet that crashed here many, many years ago.

Bottom line - they have powers we have only seen a glimpse of and the inhabitants of the island have kind of worshiped them for years. They have built statues, temples, etc and and been blessed with "gifts from the gods".

Then there is Smokey "the black smoke monster". I don't know exactly his role, whether he is the "man in black" or not but I suspect he is a guardian of some sort, almost like a pet to these two Titan like characters.

So - what do you think? Let's hear it! Let me know if you think I'm way off, on, hot, cold or just a helpless Lost addict like the rest of us on here! :)

Offline james_sawyer

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Re: Jacob and "Esau" (man in black) - Just who are they?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2009, 03:29:07 AM »
really nice story ..there are so many glimpses of religious aspect in lost , but thats is what they are glimpses, the creators want everyone to dig deeper and make a mountain out of anthill ...coming to jacob and other guy are they god ..i dont think so if jacob is god why will he die from a stabbing ..yes i agree both of them seem to have other power and i truly believe if anybody knows everything about the island then its these two guys ...these two also seem to be playing everyone (maybe for selfish motives or greater good) but i just wish lost sticks  to scientific explanation rather than supernatural stuff  :o

Offline LouE68

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Re: Jacob and "Esau" (man in black) - Just who are they?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2009, 03:49:14 AM »
it's similar too, Rush's Hemispheres song, about Dionisis an Apollo....I'm sure there are alot of similarities the writers took bits and pieces from...

Offline Maxor127

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Re: Jacob and "Esau" (man in black) - Just who are they?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2009, 06:50:03 AM »
Cerberus is a Greek mythological connection, btw.

Offline Novashannon

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Esau
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2009, 03:31:12 PM »
I know LOST has sort of been mainly following Egyptian mythology, but the Israelites did build the tombs and left Egypt.  In Judeo-Christian tradition, Esau was the twin brother of Jacob.  Jacob tricked Esau into giving up his brthright as eldest son.  Jacob received their father's blessing disguised as Jacob, who was a hunter.

I don't knoe if this is significant; nothing in the show seems to be an accident.

If someone else has already posted this, sorry, I have not come across it.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Jacob and Esau
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2009, 11:04:51 AM »
I know LOST has sort of been mainly following Egyptian mythology, but the Israelites did build the tombs and left Egypt.  In Judeo-Christian tradition, Esau was the twin brother of Jacob.  Jacob tricked Esau into giving up his brthright as eldest son.  Jacob received their father's blessing disguised as Jacob, who was a hunter.

I don't knoe if this is significant; nothing in the show seems to be an accident.

If someone else has already posted this, sorry, I have not come across it.

Don't take this the wrong way Nova, but if you haven't come across it yet on the site, you must be going through it with your eyes closed. LOL

Offline Staggerlee

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Re: Jacob and Esau
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2009, 11:13:44 AM »
For that eloquent, polite dismissal of another's idea/theory Bobbx, you get an early morning Irish Pop Tart*!!!






*only half a pint o' Guinness for the early birdies....full pints only after 10:30....
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion.

F. Bacon

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Jacob and Esau
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2009, 11:41:37 AM »
For that eloquent, polite dismissal of another's idea/theory Bobbx, you get an early morning Irish Pop Tart*!!!






*only half a pint o' Guinness for the early birdies....full pints only after 10:30....

Not dismissing at all, just saying that I think almost every other person logging onto the site has posted the story of Jacob and Esau.

Offline Staggerlee

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Re: Jacob and Esau
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2009, 12:09:13 PM »
Exactly, at least I could read in it a joking politeness that was rather refreshing to read.

raise the glasses, clink the rims, swallow the dark brew heartily...repeat the third as necessary....
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion.

F. Bacon

Offline Novashannon

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Re: Jacob and Esau
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2009, 02:29:22 PM »
Dudes, give me a swig!  There are topics now, but I came through and read the day after the epi, and none had thought of it then.  I posted a thread, but it desappeared and newer threads have taken over.  I have yet to read back through all of them.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 02:33:22 PM by Novashannon »

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Jacob and Esau
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2009, 03:51:10 PM »
Dudes, give me a swig!  There are topics now, but I came through and read the day after the epi, and none had thought of it then.  I posted a thread, but it desappeared and newer threads have taken over.  I have yet to read back through all of them.

Just saying is all.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Jacob and Esau
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2010, 09:37:42 AM »
A Story of Two Brothers
For twenty years after her marriage Rebecca was thought to be barren. Her husband prayed to the Lord on her behalf and she conceived twins. When she had been pregnant for seven months she began to wish that the curse of childlessness had not been removed from her. She suffered great pains, because her twin sons began their lifelong quarrel in her womb. She consulted the Lord who told her: “Two nations are in your womb. Two peoples are quarrelling while still within you. But one shall surpass the other and the older shall serve the younger” (Gn 25:23).
Esau (which means ruddy and hairy) was the first-born. The second, who grabbed his brother’s heel, was called Jacob. In the Bible and in the Semitic world the name given to a person is very important for it contains his vocation. To “grab his heel” figuratively means “to deceive.” Jacob would be known as the deceiver because he stole the birthright from his brother and deceived his father who bestowed on him the promise made to Abraham which should have gone to the first born. Jacob became the inheritor of the covenant.
Esau hated his younger brother Jacob on account of the blessing that his father had given him. Thinking that this might result in murder, Jacob was sent away to find a wife among their kinsmen in Haran where he accumulated a fortune. Esau also became a wealthy man. The two sons followed different paths of life.

Okay - I had to bring this thread back because there are elements here that fit these characters.  I am not saying that this what is happening but there is a similarity to this story.  It would make sense that these wto are more siblings than friends.  I dont' want to call MIB Esau because I am hopeful TPTB have not gone biblical on us, but have taken a tale that spans the centuries - I am sure there are all kinds of stories about siblings fighting - to create another story that has a twist by inlcuding other folks, maily our Losties