You found your loophole

[simeean]

maybe everyone is over complicating it.  good vs. bad, god vs. devil.  Jacob wants people to exercise free will and deal with it..but blackie dude is the one who tells them to do something bad.  Take young kate stealing..maybe it was blackie whispering in her ear so to speak, saying steal it! and we only see jacob, fixing the problem.  you know the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other...

I was thinking this too, we've only just met Jacob, maybe the next season will show us the flashbacks where #2 went to visit everyone...

[snoopafly]

first time poster so please be kind

It was pretty clear from the finale that Jakob really believes in the power of choice and free will, while his adversary has strong ties towards fate. But what if the loophole involves rules that must respect the beliefs of the other. What I mean is that I believed that the loophole was not only Anti Jakob being in a different body, but he also must create a situation where someone by choice decides to kill Jacob. Since Jacob is an advocate of choice and free will, a pawn like Ben who is not under direct control of any other force, who then chooses to kill Jacob for his own reasons, would be allowed since it would be within the confines of the game. I think thats why Anti Jakob could not do it himself. It seems that Jacob and his adversary are relegated to observers almost, who can manipulate and place people in opportune places to achieve what each desire, but neither can take an active role and take action themselves. Which would explain why Christian, who I believe is in collusion with Anti Jakob but is not him directly, could not help Locke when he fell down the well.

On a somewhat separate note, when Christian asks Locke to the move the island and Ben moves it instead, the next time Christian and Locke meet Christian is annoyed with Locke because he asked Locke to move it and not Ben. If Christian was/is working for Jakob's adversary, why would he want Locke to leave the island then? He hadn't told him he needed to die yet when he originally asked him to move the island, so that idea wouldn't be in his mind, and Ben wouldn't off the island to kill him either. That is of course unless Christian is really working for Jakob and Jakob wanted to take Locke out of the equation so his adversary couldn't use him. So many possibilities with this show.

[simeean]

first time poster so please be kind

It was pretty clear from the finale that Jakob really believes in the power of choice and free will, while his adversary has strong ties towards fate. But what if the loophole involves rules that must respect the beliefs of the other. What I mean is that I believed that the loophole was not only Anti Jakob being in a different body, but he also must create a situation where someone by choice decides to kill Jacob. Since Jacob is an advocate of choice and free will, a pawn like Ben who is not under direct control of any other force, who then chooses to kill Jacob for his own reasons, would be allowed since it would be within the confines of the game. I think thats why Anti Jakob could not do it himself. It seems that Jacob and his adversary are relegated to observers almost, who can manipulate and place people in opportune places to achieve what each desire, but neither can take an active role and take action themselves. Which would explain why Christian, who I believe is in collusion with Anti Jakob but is not him directly, could not help Locke when he fell down the well.

On a somewhat separate note, when Christian asks Locke to the move the island and Ben moves it instead, the next time Christian and Locke meet Christian is annoyed with Locke because he asked Locke to move it and not Ben. If Christian was/is working for Jakob's adversary, why would he want Locke to leave the island then? He hadn't told him he needed to die yet when he originally asked him to move the island, so that idea wouldn't be in his mind, and Ben wouldn't off the island to kill him either. That is of course unless Christian is really working for Jakob and Jakob wanted to take Locke out of the equation so his adversary couldn't use him. So many possibilities with this show.

I do think that's what each one is representing, but the rules don't quite work.... If each has to play by the other's rules, then there's no way Jacob could ever "win", unless #2 was destined to die, in which case there would be no game to begin with.... Though that would pretty much guarantee that he DOES win, by dying and proving his free will argument..... Also, if #2 were to find this as the loophole, then he'd basically be proving himself wrong.... Actually, now I kind of like this idea, it ties my brain in knots, and that's always fun... 

[snoopafly]

yeah..it definitely does twist your brain in knots. Especially when analyzing the scene when Jakob talks to Ben about having a choice of whether or not he needs to kill him or not. Anti Jakob believes in fate and I'm sure in his mind he believes that eventually everything Jakob has put into place will become corrupted and end, as he alluded to in the opening scene. But at the same time it seemed to me that he wanted Ben to act of his own accord, almost as if he was sticking it to Jakob even further, because Ben DOES act on this free will that Jakob loves so much, and he uses it to kill Jakob. Yet Jakob's reaction is as if he accepted his fate and knew that Ben was going to attack him, even after his attempt at enlightening Ben on his power of choice.

That's why I felt that they each had to respect one another's ideologies in this game they are playing.

[BobBX542]

While reading about the "War in Heaven" on Wiki, I came upon a link for the LDS church and their belief that two of the strongest beings in Heaven were vying for leadership of a new planet that would be colonized with humans. (This is me paraphrasing.) One contender said that the only way humans would reach their god-like status was to "force" them to choose the right path back (Lucifer) because that would be the only way to overcome their human propensity towards war and greed etc. The other contender (Michael, Jesus) said that it would only mean something to each individual if they chose the right path on their own, even if it meant only a few people would find their way back to "God."

Now, I don't think the writer's of Lost would ever subscribe to one belief system/story line (this is evident by the fact that there are many differing culture and religious references), but I think those two people might be a metaphor for the progression of human-kind...either we're so carnal that only forcing us to comply and "be good" is the only way to evolve...or progress towards being a more positive being can only "count" if it is made by a person's free will.

Well, seeing as how all religions steal from some other form of religion to fit their needs, maybe they are telling that story, but they are telling the ORIGINAL story.

[Wishbone]

I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The graying character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong dead people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.

Why would Jacob tell Hurley that talking to dead people is a blessing?

OK, I got a bit muddled reading all the theories here but I think I get the gist - so - if #2 has taken on dead peoples forms maybe this is why Jacob told Hurley he was blessed because he knew that meant Hurley was one of the good guys so to speak. In being able to see and speak to dead people he couldn't be fooled by #2 like other people, he would see through it and follow his own feelings rather than be led by someone. Fake-Locke had everyone else fooled that he was real Locke, even Richard, and it has been said many times before that Hurley is special.

[WhatThe]

I think that the loophole is more complicated than the man-in-black just needing someone else to kill Jacob.  Because that task in and of itself is VERY complicated. The way I see it, the "loophole" is the method by which the man-in-black can successfully get past Jacob's "protectors" and have him killed, without having to actually kill Jacob himself. 

So at the beginning of the episode when they showed Jacob and The Guy In Black sitting alone on the beach talking, did Jacob have "protectors" for him to get past? Seems like there was nobody at all to keep Jacob from being killed. You'd also have to assume that all the years prior to that moment Jacob was just as easily accessible and without "protectors". Yet they still talked about a "loophole" back then. So would a method to get past his protectors really be part of the loophole still?

Also, are we assuming that The Guy In Black was not allowed to kill Jacob? If so, why not?

[WhatThe]

first time poster so please be kind

It was pretty clear from the finale that Jakob really believes in the power of choice and free will, while his adversary has strong ties towards fate. But what if the loophole involves rules that must respect the beliefs of the other. What I mean is that I believed that the loophole was not only Anti Jakob being in a different body, but he also must create a situation where someone by choice decides to kill Jacob. Since Jacob is an advocate of choice and free will, a pawn like Ben who is not under direct control of any other force, who then chooses to kill Jacob for his own reasons, would be allowed since it would be within the confines of the game. I think thats why Anti Jakob could not do it himself. It seems that Jacob and his adversary are relegated to observers almost, who can manipulate and place people in opportune places to achieve what each desire, but neither can take an active role and take action themselves. Which would explain why Christian, who I believe is in collusion with Anti Jakob but is not him directly, could not help Locke when he fell down the well.

The only problems I would have with this theory is that Ben was literally told to do whatever Locke told him to do, thus basically eliminating free will. The other is something that a lot of others have brought up: "fake" Locke needing to insert himself into a dead body. I think The Guy In Black did inhabit Locke's body, but not because it was part of the rules that he had to follow in order to kill Jacob. It was just the means in which he chose to carry out his plan.

On a somewhat separate note, when Christian asks Locke to the move the island and Ben moves it instead, the next time Christian and Locke meet Christian is annoyed with Locke because he asked Locke to move it and not Ben. If Christian was/is working for Jakob's adversary, why would he want Locke to leave the island then? He hadn't told him he needed to die yet when he originally asked him to move the island, so that idea wouldn't be in his mind, and Ben wouldn't off the island to kill him either. That is of course unless Christian is really working for Jakob and Jakob wanted to take Locke out of the equation so his adversary couldn't use him. So many possibilities with this show.

Good question lol

[cookieshoes]

I think that the loophole is more complicated than the man-in-black just needing someone else to kill Jacob.  Because that task in and of itself is VERY complicated. The way I see it, the "loophole" is the method by which the man-in-black can successfully get past Jacob's "protectors" and have him killed, without having to actually kill Jacob himself. 

So at the beginning of the episode when they showed Jacob and The Guy In Black sitting alone on the beach talking, did Jacob have "protectors" for him to get past? Seems like there was nobody at all to keep Jacob from being killed. You'd also have to assume that all the years prior to that moment Jacob was just as easily accessible and without "protectors". Yet they still talked about a "loophole" back then. So would a method to get past his protectors really be part of the loophole still?

Also, are we assuming that The Guy In Black was not allowed to kill Jacob? If so, why not?

Yes, I think that the most basic fact in the relationship between Jacob and his Nemesis is that they can't personally kill each other. Either from some "cosmic inability" to do so, or from simple ying/yang due to having equal-but-opposite powers. Whatever it is, it's the rules.

I'm inclined to think that a big part of this hinges on a notion that the relationship between Jacob and his Nemesis is a case of "opposites".  From the color of their hair, to where they live, to their powers, to how they think, etc.  They need humans as proxies to do things to the other, so, whereas Jacob can use the living, his Nemesis has to use the dead. Further to this, perhaps it would also make sense that Jacob's Nemesis may want to kill Jacob, but Jacob has no desire to kill his Nemesis.

So, the concept of Jacob needing protectors still holds, even though there has yet to be any of the 815ers, or even the crew from the Black Rock on the island yet.  Because notice that Jacob's Nemesis mentioned that "it always ends the same way". And then he described how the humans come, they destroy, they corrupt, etc.  So, obviously the "game" has been going on forever (or who knows how long). To which, we can assume that Jacob has had many other people on the island before, probably including the Egyptians who built the statue, and who knows how many other cycles of humans who have come to the island, left it, or died there.  When the Black Rock appeared on the horizon, the comments by Jacob's Nemesis suggest that a new cycle was beginning. 

And so, with each new cycle of humans that comes, Jacob's Nemesis tries to use them to kill Jacob.  The missing piece here (among many other missing pieces) is that we don't entirely know what purpose Jacob has for bringing humans to the island in the first place.
 

[BobBX542]

I think that the loophole is more complicated than the man-in-black just needing someone else to kill Jacob.  Because that task in and of itself is VERY complicated. The way I see it, the "loophole" is the method by which the man-in-black can successfully get past Jacob's "protectors" and have him killed, without having to actually kill Jacob himself. 

So at the beginning of the episode when they showed Jacob and The Guy In Black sitting alone on the beach talking, did Jacob have "protectors" for him to get past? Seems like there was nobody at all to keep Jacob from being killed. You'd also have to assume that all the years prior to that moment Jacob was just as easily accessible and without "protectors". Yet they still talked about a "loophole" back then. So would a method to get past his protectors really be part of the loophole still?

Also, are we assuming that The Guy In Black was not allowed to kill Jacob? If so, why not?

As far as protectors go, I'm not so sure, but I think it was strongly implied that Man 2 for whatever reason can not kill him, or else he would have right there. There was a knife and a fire right there.

[MangoBingo]

I like it, now work in how smokey fits in and why smokey told ben to listen to locke?

smokey and the fake locke are the same "person"
they / he manipulated Ben to kill Jacob

Amazing! 

Love digging through these old threads to see whom was right or wrong with their theories.

[RM]

In "LA X", UnLocke says to Ben, "I didn't make you do anything."  So even UnLocke seems to actually believe in Free Will.  It's just that his strategy in the "game" with Jacob is to use ordinary people's belief in "fate" and "destiny" against them in order to get them to choose to do what he wants them do.  As Christian, he told the real Locke in the well that he couldn't help him directly.

So I think the show seems to be on the side that everyone has Free Will, but that for the most part, people's nature means that what's supposed to happen, will happen -- when they went back and had a chance to reset things, almost everything they tried to change didn't take.  Somehow this one act of going through with Daniel's bomb detonation plan "worked" (according to dead Juliet).

[LostinLock]

yeah they have a choice but MIB manipulated Ben he goaded Ben and reminded him that Jacob ignored him all that time.  He does it when he is sitting on the beach, he sit along side him and gives him all the reason in the world why he should have no issue killing Jacob.

So after Ben spews forth his little you ignored me blah blah stuff Jacob does answer in good form what about you?  So it just pushes Ben over the deep end as he is so easily pushed and committs the murder.   

I know what the point is but not sure if Ben in this instance wasn't pushed by both of these guys to get the real game rolling

[lostieloo]

It just seems kinda strange that Jacob could be killed in the first place, being that it seemed like he was immortal and all.  Couldn't a tree falling on him or a rogue seagull have done him in at some point?

[BobBX542]

It just seems kinda strange that Jacob could be killed in the first place, being that it seemed like he was immortal and all.  Couldn't a tree falling on him or a rogue seagull have done him in at some point?

It could be that he has to be murdered. I know that seems weird, but I think in order to dispell any logic arguements about trees falling on him, that may have to be it. BUT, I have no idea. I'm just shooting from the hip.