Author Topic: You found your loophole  (Read 12445 times)

Offline opgelost

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2009, 04:53:11 PM »
Jack healed Ben, forced by Juliet.

Offline simeean

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2009, 04:53:33 PM »
That's what I really want to know. How Ben got healed.
Jacob asked Ilana for help, Ilana helped him bringing Sayid to the island,
Sayid tries to kill young Ben, Ben is brought to the temple by Richard.
What happened in that temple?

I would say Jacob's enemy healed Ben, because Ben is the one that will kill Locke,
take his body, keep it safe and bring him back to the island and Ben is the one who will
kill Jacob.
But why would Richard do that if he is on Jacob's side.

If Jacob healed Ben, why would he do that? He doesn't like him, never wants to see him,
gives him cancer and Ben will kill him.

Widmore was right when he told Ben that Jacob wanted baby Alex to be killed. She is Ben's weakness
and now Jacob's enemy used her to make sure that Ben would listen to him (fake Locke).


Maybe Ben doesn't know? He's pretty pissed at Jacob for never speaking to him, never appearing to him, when Jacob is actually the entire reason Ben is even alive.... More daddy issues for Ben? There's got to be a reason they haven't gone back to Ben's healing after so many episodes... That may be the loophole, Jacob can only be killed by someone who was... whatever-was-done-to-Ben.... by Jacob?

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2009, 07:52:40 PM »
Remember when Locke broke his leg at the bottom of the well and Christian advised him that he couldn't assist him?

Maybe Christian was also being inhabited by the black-shirt-guy all along.

Perhaps it's a competition... Jacob is trying to win by influencing individuals and black-shirt-guy is trying to win by being passive.

Offline cookieshoes

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2009, 09:20:45 PM »
I'm finding it hard to believe simply getting someone else to kill Jacob is the "loophole". Seems like an insanely easy loophole to find, if that's the case. Plus, that sounds more like a condition to be met, not a loophole...loopholes are the rare exception. "Somebody other than you must kill Jacob" doesn't sound like a rare exception, because any of the other 6 billion people on the planet could kill Jacob lol :)

I really have zero idea what the loophole might be that allowed Jacob to be killed.

I think that the loophole is more complicated than the man-in-black just needing someone else to kill Jacob.  Because that task in and of itself is VERY complicated. The way I see it, the "loophole" is the method by which the man-in-black can successfully get past Jacob's "protectors" and have him killed, without having to actually kill Jacob himself.  Like someone else mentioned before, like a game of chess. But where the opponent's pawns are used to kill their own King. In which case, the "loophole" as we now know, was revealed by using John Locke.

First, up to this point we've been led to believe that there are two individuals on the island involved in Jacob's protection. Each one of them with a unique role. There is Jacob's personal liaison = Richard, who Jacob made immortal, presumably so that he can protect Jacob forever. And then there is the leader of the army that does Jacob's bidding = first Widmore, and then Ben. As times changes, the members of the army grow old and die, so there is constantly a need for new people to be a part of it. It's therefore a revolving system of protection, where Jacob only needs to count on one person, Richard, while the rest are expendable leaders and new bodies. So, to infiltrate that system of protection required someone who could not only get the trust of both Richard and Ben, but also be able to manipulate both of them so that they not only brought the man-in-black to Jacob, but also killed Jacob for him.

So, this "someone" is the loophole. The loophole had to be an off-island arrival who when arriving on the island came to the realization that they need to not only stay there, but protect it (and by extension, Jacob). Which would help to align him to those already doing that job (Richard and Ben). Additionally, he had to not only impress them with his committment to the island, but also be in a position where, for some reason, Richard and Ben would look up to him and start treating him as their new leader, or as someone "special".

The man-in-black did this by first giving Locke the ability to walk again. Which won him Locke's allegiance to the island, and by extension a "false" allegiance to Jacob.  By orchestrating the time travel where Locke was able to go back in time to visit Richard, this set up Richard to influence Ben later on when Locke reappeared in the future.  So, now Locke seemed like his own meaningful leader with a history on the island, rather than just an outsider or a stranger.  Since he had regained the ability to walk, this impressed Ben, who had cancer.  And since he had not aged a day in 50 years, and spoke of things that had yet to happen, this impressed Richard, who was the only other inhabitant of the island who did not age.

So, with that set of manipulation in place (the man-in-black using Locke, Richard, and Ben) the man-in-black had to then orchestrate it so that Locke would be killed by Ben out of jealousy, yet also create a circumstance by which Ben would bring Locke's body back to the island, so that the man-in-black could use his body as a vehicle. From there, he would be in a position to use that person's body and identity to further exert his influence over both Ben and Richard.  Ben would follow Locke, because Ben had killed him and, being human himself, obviously would see that Locke was powerful enough to have been brought back to life. And Richard would follow Locke, because Richard had never seen anyone brought back to life before either, so that meant that Locke was obviously more special than he was as well.

In between this, the man-in-black used living Locke, as well as the death of Ben's daughter and Jacob's silence to Ben, to corrupt Ben's faith in Jacob. And he used Locke to mislead Richard.

So, when the time came, and the circumstances were right, in Locke's body he was easily able to convince Richard to take him to Jacob, and he was able to convince Ben to kill Jacob for him.

The only hitch here I think is why Jacob never warned Richard about John Locke?  If Jacob had been regularly communicating with Richard, wouldn't Richard have mentioned this guy who had been traveling through time?  Why wouldn't Jacob have instructed Richard not to believe in anyone who comes back to life, or at least warned Richard that Jacob had a nemesis on the island who was constantly trying to kill him? 

Which perhaps is where Jacob's loophole comes in? Or is that part of the arrangement between Jacob and his nemesis, that neither of them can speak to anyone about the other's existence?

Offline aha

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2009, 01:02:38 AM »
I take the "loophole" to be all the work Nemesis did to arrange for Locke to 1) become the Leader of the Others (even though he was not special); 2) die while Leader; 3) have his corpse transported back to the island so Nemesis could assume his form (via bringing back all of the Oceanic Six, and making sure Locke's corpse came with them).  This allowed Nemesis-as-Locke to demand access to Jacob's inner sanctum, force Ben to accompany him inside, and motivate Ben to kill Jacob (via appearing as his daughter).

On the other hand, it sure doesn't appear that Jacob was going to try to persuade Ben to stand down.  It's as though he either wanted to die at that time (as we saw, he had been intervening in everyone's lives for decades in order to set something up), or he is really big on free will.  He all but dared Ben to stab him.  Meanwhile, Ben has been more or less under the sway of the island ever since 1977 when Richard saved his life at the temple.  So does he, or any of the characters, actually have free will?  That seems to be the central question of the show this season, and the answer thus far has proven to be No.  Every "choice" they think they are making is actually pre-ordained and ultimately orchestrated by, presumably, Jacob.


Offline hyperform

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2009, 01:06:47 AM »
Does this mean that Eloise is on Esau's side?

Offline jugdish

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2009, 01:23:27 AM »
Great posts cookieshoes. I am along the same line of thought. It was the whole process. That is why Phonylocke told Jacob he had no idea what he went through.

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2009, 02:59:11 AM »
Nice post cookieshoes


The only thing that I would have is that we need all of the "rules" to understand were the loophole lies

Offline CaseyMac

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2009, 03:58:53 AM »
I like the post cookieshoes. It would certainly make sense of "Locke's" line to Jacob, "You have no idea what I had to go through."

Offline Blitz Wing

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2009, 06:39:36 AM »
I'm finding it hard to believe simply getting someone else to kill Jacob is the "loophole". Seems like an insanely easy loophole to find, if that's the case. Plus, that sounds more like a condition to be met, not a loophole...loopholes are the rare exception. "Somebody other than you must kill Jacob" doesn't sound like a rare exception, because any of the other 6 billion people on the planet could kill Jacob lol :)

I really have zero idea what the loophole might be that allowed Jacob to be killed.

I think the "loophole" might be more than just having somebody else kill Jacob. It could be you had to get one of Jacob's leaders to betray him.....Ben being the leader (as real Locke is really dead) betrayed Jacob by stabbing him. This could be somewhat foreshadowed by Ben blowing away Caesar (Ben playing the role of Brutus in the betrayal of Julius Caesar?). Or it could also have something to do with Ben being banished from the Island....as it seems like anybody who's been kicked off the Island can't get back on.....but Ben found a way. Or as others have pointed out, it could have something to do with how Young Ben was healed from Sayid's gunshot.

One point of interest though.....we're all assuming that the guy in black can't kill Jacob, so he gets Ben to do it. Well technically Ben never killed Jacob, he only wounded Jacob. I think fake "Locke" kicking Jacob into the firepit would more likely qualify as killing Jacob. But WTF...I thought the guy in black (aka fake "Locke") can't kill Jacob!?

Offline RM

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2009, 12:09:26 AM »
Perhaps it's a competition... Jacob is trying to win by influencing individuals and black-shirt-guy is trying to win by being passive.

Yeah, I'm interested in the difference between the way Jacob is playing their game and the way [Esau] is playing.  Jacob seems to be (besides the physical touching) anonymously putting a thought in their heads whereas [Esau] is making supernatural appearances to people.  Jacob is after people feeling they are making their own choices creating their future whereas [Esau] is after people feeling their fate is predestined and let themselves be guided by revelation of what they're "supposed to do".

Offline elise

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2009, 08:56:02 AM »
maybe everyone is over complicating it.  good vs. bad, god vs. devil.  Jacob wants people to exercise free will and deal with it..but blackie dude is the one who tells them to do something bad.  Take young kate stealing..maybe it was blackie whispering in her ear so to speak, saying steal it! and we only see jacob, fixing the problem.  you know the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other...

Offline vickilynn

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2009, 10:27:13 AM »
While reading about the "War in Heaven" on Wiki, I came upon a link for the LDS church and their belief that two of the strongest beings in Heaven were vying for leadership of a new planet that would be colonized with humans. (This is me paraphrasing.) One contender said that the only way humans would reach their god-like status was to "force" them to choose the right path back (Lucifer) because that would be the only way to overcome their human propensity towards war and greed etc. The other contender (Michael, Jesus) said that it would only mean something to each individual if they chose the right path on their own, even if it meant only a few people would find their way back to "God."

Now, I don't think the writer's of Lost would ever subscribe to one belief system/story line (this is evident by the fact that there are many differing culture and religious references), but I think those two people might be a metaphor for the progression of human-kind...either we're so carnal that only forcing us to comply and "be good" is the only way to evolve...or progress towards being a more positive being can only "count" if it is made by a person's free will.

Offline Staggerlee

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2009, 11:14:17 AM »
Vicky, that is some fab research there.

Whether or not they took direct inspiration from that story* of not (most likely not, but one never knows) that story illustrates quite well a possibility here, the dichotomy of Lost.

You, mon ami, get the first post-season Irish Pop Tart!!!!!





*someone of course will take it the completely wrong way and scream "Are they trying to push a LDS agenda!!!????!!!"


There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion.

F. Bacon

Offline vickilynn

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2009, 11:29:40 AM »
Vicky, that is some fab research there.

Whether or not they took direct inspiration from that story* of not (most likely not, but one never knows) that story illustrates quite well a possibility here, the dichotomy of Lost.

You, mon ami, get the first post-season Irish Pop Tart!!!!!





*someone of course will take it the completely wrong way and scream "Are they trying to push a LDS agenda!!!????!!!"



Thanks, Stagger!  ;D

Of course I don't think the Lost writers are pushing any religion/belief, it's a total mash-up. It just made sense to me that these might be the parameters of Jacob/other person's "game" they're playing.