Author Topic: You found your loophole  (Read 10844 times)

Offline tonysee200x

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2009, 01:39:08 AM »
I like it, now work in how smokey fits in and why smokey told ben to listen to locke?

Offline jamesl

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2009, 01:42:04 AM »
I like it, now work in how smokey fits in and why smokey told ben to listen to locke?

smokey and the fake locke are the same "person"
they / he manipulated Ben to kill Jacob

Offline arkay

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2009, 01:42:55 AM »
it's the same rules that applied to widmore and ben.

simple literature 101 really, man in black represents the intricacies of death, and the man in white (Jacob in this case) represents the intricacies of "life, both good and bad"

refer back to their conversation in the opening minutes of the episode for a little more insight

I was just thinking that maybe that scene from  The Shape of Things To Come with Ben and Charles in Charles bedroom, was actually Jacob and Esau speaking to each other through them.


Oh snap!  That's a good point!
Maybe it was something from the future that we haven't seen, or maybe Ben and Charles were bound by the same rules?

Offline NorthShoreOGLost

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2009, 08:03:05 AM »
I don't know WHY this is happening, but I'm convinced I know WHAT is happening.

The graying character sitting with Jacob in the beginning (far in the past, played by Titus Welliver of Deadwood fame) can somehow not only travel in time (like Jacob can) but also can make people think he is someone else, but only dead people.

He not only appeared as the dead Locke, but has been appearing as other dead people -- Christian, Charlie, Libby. His goal has been to find a way to kill Jacob all along (for what reason, we will find out in season 6), and he has been traveling around in time and taking on the appearance of dead people in order to try to get Jacob killed.

It does seem as if the loophole was to find someone willing to kill Jacob. So until now he had been appearing as the wrong dead person, and appearing to the wrong dead people. He got closer by appearing to Ben as Alex, but that wasn't quite enough. As Alex, he told Ben to listen to Locke ... and then appeared to Ben as Locke too, in order to tell him to kill Jacob.



Why would Jacob tell Hurley that talking to dead people is a blessing?

He neede Hurley to get on the plane. That was just part of the convincing.

He did want Hurley to get on the plane and it probably was part of the convincing, but I think it's much simpler than that, too.  Seems to me like he was just trying to comfort and encourage Hurley, pointing out that when other people lose loved ones to death, they don't ever get to see them again.  In other words, Hurley should feel blessed because he gets to continue to see loved ones who've died while others do not have this privelege.

Offline bastor

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2009, 08:09:44 AM »
Double post from me but:

In the Book of Jubilees (which is neither part of the Jewish nor most Christian canons), Esau's father, Isaac, compels Esau to swear not to attack or kill Jacob after Isaac has died.

 -Wiki

Promise/Oath/Whatever some force can not let him directly kill Jacob (Jacob's death as said by Ben in an interview is a cataclysmic event) so he needed someone to do it passively....
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 08:11:22 AM by bastor »

Offline lostieloo

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2009, 11:17:18 AM »
It's so ironic because up to this point, ben has been the manipulator.

Offline MattChiz

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2009, 12:46:07 PM »
Ben only thought he was the manipulator. Just as we thought he was the manipulator. Turns out we were all wrong! Smokey/Esau/BlackShirt has been manipulating one side of the game. Just as Jacob has been manipulating the other side, albeit in a nicer fashion.

Offline simeean

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2009, 02:04:34 PM »
That's what I'm trying to figure out, this whole time it's been Widmore vs. Ben, but now where do they fit into anything? Are they still opposing sides? Or are they just part of Jacob's plot to prove #2 wrong? Is their little war just an educational strategy game, like tic tac toe in Wargames?

Offline MattChiz

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2009, 02:05:45 PM »
think of ben and widmore like rooks in a chess game. Theyre pretty important, but they are still pieces on a board...

Offline RM

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2009, 01:25:55 AM »
Yes, Ben and Widmore (and everyone, even Richard) are just pieces on the board game being played out by Jacob and [Esau].  The thing is, in this game, no single piece "belongs" to one player or the other.  Both players can influence the "moves" of any piece through their persuasive influence on the free will choice of the piece (person).

But, Ilana and Bram are clearly in opposition to Widmore.  That suggests that they feel they're on Jacob's side and Widmore is on [Esau]'s side.  Widmore is clearly against Ben, but it's not clear to me that Ben was ever chosen by Jacob.  That was a free will audible by Richard, and Jacob never consecrated that choice by summoning Ben for an audience or speaking directly to him.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2009, 04:43:00 AM »
I'm finding it hard to believe simply getting someone else to kill Jacob is the "loophole". Seems like an insanely easy loophole to find, if that's the case. Plus, that sounds more like a condition to be met, not a loophole...loopholes are the rare exception. "Somebody other than you must kill Jacob" doesn't sound like a rare exception, because any of the other 6 billion people on the planet could kill Jacob lol :)

I really have zero idea what the loophole might be that allowed Jacob to be killed.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2009, 04:11:04 PM »
I'm finding it hard to believe simply getting someone else to kill Jacob is the "loophole". Seems like an insanely easy loophole to find, if that's the case. Plus, that sounds more like a condition to be met, not a loophole...loopholes are the rare exception. "Somebody other than you must kill Jacob" doesn't sound like a rare exception, because any of the other 6 billion people on the planet could kill Jacob lol :)

I really have zero idea what the loophole might be that allowed Jacob to be killed.

I think that the loophole is actually "Somebody other than you must have a desire, and good reason to kill Jacob". That's what I got out of it. And I agree with you, just having someone else kill Jacob would be easy, why not just drive Danielle crazy while she lived alone in the jungle all that time, then somehow drive her towards the statue, and have her do it. The person (other than Man 2) probably has to have a very good reason to kill him.

Offline bastor

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2009, 04:19:48 PM »
Yes but Ben didn't really have a good motive...i mean for all he knows he has been getting his orders and lists from the crazy in Richards head BUT Ben is the leader since Locke is dead, isn't he? What if only the proclaimed leader can do it? And another question...how exactly was Ben healed as a child? It had something to do with mysterious powers....maybe Ben was the only one all along who could kill Jacob....yet we are not sure Jacob is dead just cus his body is....

Offline opgelost

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2009, 04:37:20 PM »
That's what I really want to know. How Ben got healed.
Jacob asked Ilana for help, Ilana helped him bringing Sayid to the island,
Sayid tries to kill young Ben, Ben is brought to the temple by Richard.
What happened in that temple?

I would say Jacob's enemy healed Ben, because Ben is the one that will kill Locke,
take his body, keep it safe and bring him back to the island and Ben is the one who will
kill Jacob.
But why would Richard do that if he is on Jacob's side.

If Jacob healed Ben, why would he do that? He doesn't like him, never wants to see him,
gives him cancer and Ben will kill him.

Widmore was right when he told Ben that Jacob wanted baby Alex to be killed. She is Ben's weakness
and now Jacob's enemy used her to make sure that Ben would listen to him (fake Locke).

Offline bastor

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Re: You found your loophole
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2009, 04:46:19 PM »
We are not sure why Ben had cancer....maybe Jacob healed Ben and hence Ben got the power to kill Jacob and from then on Man #2/Black Shirt w/e had been scheming on how to turn Ben against Jacob which got pretty easy when a newcomer suddenly took his position and got more by doing nothing than Ben had ever had with hard achieved with hard work....i mean c'mon he was pretty pissed....he gets cancer a guy next to him get to raise from the dead (so it seemed to him)