Author Topic: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer  (Read 2485 times)

Offline Maxor127

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1337
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2009, 02:40:26 PM »
Too bad Sawyer is a better leader than Jack any day.  Last night, I realized that every finale involves Jack having a great plan to "save" them that goes horribly wrong.  I guess you could make an argument about season 1's finale, but season 2 had Jack taking the fight to the Others and getting him and two others kidnapped along the way.  Season 3 had him calling the freighter which brought Keamy's men and the deaths of countless innocent people.  Season 4 had them finally getting off the island at the cost of even more lives while alluding to other ramifications that I'm still not clear on.  Either way, they left for nothing because they ended up right back.  And now season 5 season finale has Jack wanting to detonate a hydrogen bomb, and something tells me that it's a big mistake.  BUT I think Jack will surprise us all when his crazy plan this time actually works because I think something has to happen that brings everyone from 1977 back to the present, and whether you like the character or not, Jack is arguably the most important character on the show, even more important than Locke.  While Locke may be Obi Wan Kenobi, Jack is like Luke Skywalker still trying to find his way.  And then there's the creepy Christian spectre that just doesn't seem to go away and seems to be guiding everyone's fates like some puppetmaster, and his goals and motivation are still unclear.  But while he may seem to direct Locke's destiny and claims to speak for the island, I think Christian is only concerned with one thing, and that's making sure Jack fulfills his destiny, whatever that may be.

Offline hyperform

  • DHARMA Scientist
  • ******
  • Posts: 5272
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2009, 02:41:30 PM »
I don't think so.  I don't see Kate as being selfish.  She took in Aaron, helped Claire give birth; helped Jack stitch up; always treid to help people on the island.  In fact. she was trying to free her mother from an abusive husband when she killed her stopfather.  
And you think she is selfish because she does not want to set off a bomb?  That bobmb may change some things, but it will kill the islanders.  Not wanting to do that is slefish?  I think Kate speaks for reason.  Maybe setting off the bomb will change some of the future, but what else will it change?  Maybe people will die who didn't.  We don't know.  Maybe nothing at all will change.  

How is not wanting to set of an h-bomb selfish?
you totally glossed over what I said, and here is the rub, I don't think it will kill anyone, as I stated in a thread for the last episode, I think it will be an explosion of the bomb vs the implosion of the future site of the swan hatch, there for they negate each other, I think that is what Dan was getting at last week.

Sorry, I think your reply crossed my reply to previous post!  They don't know what will happen if they blow up the bomb. 
that is the assumption they are working under, to quote Tyler Durden " we're not killing anyone, we're setting them free"

and you still haven't addressed my initial point

Offline WhatThe

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1421
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2009, 02:43:21 PM »
That lasat was extremely sexist!!!!

Not to any man who's ever had to deal witha pregnant wife lol (which I have). Just a comment on the natural changes in hormones and to the body that a pregnant woman would undergo. The only way it would be sexist is if it was solely because of her gender, which I clearly showed I was not talking about. Calm. Down.


Quote
Kate has always loved Jack.  She is fond of Sawyer. Sawyer has slept with several women, but you don't talk about how HE can't make up his mind!!! Ana Lucia, Kate, Juliet.
That's because he USES people...he's consistent. Sawyer doesn't sleep around because he thinks he's in love with anyone, so no emotions are involved in his actions. If anything, Sawyer kept his emotions far too much in check. At least until lately.

Quote
Ditto Jack.  You seem to have a double standard there!

Wait, who besides Kate did Jack sleep with? The MOST Jack did was kiss Juliet...ONCE. lol.

And this thread is not titled "Who are the most emotional characters of Lost?", is it? Nope.

Again...calm down. :)

*EDIT: wrong thread reference lol...
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 02:46:01 PM by WhatThe »

Offline WhatThe

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1421
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2009, 02:52:00 PM »
Too bad Sawyer is a better leader than Jack any day.  Last night, I realized that every finale involves Jack having a great plan to "save" them that goes horribly wrong.  I guess you could make an argument about season 1's finale, but season 2 had Jack taking the fight to the Others and getting him and two others kidnapped along the way.

Not quite. Season 2 had Michael convincing Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley to help him try and rescue Walt, and convincing them that the Others were mostly old people and women with only a few guns, easy to overtake. Jack, though, made plans with Sayid to have him scout out the place first and set a fire once he's convinced their destination was safe. Quite a different take on how you condensed it lol.


Quote
And now season 5 season finale has Jack wanting to detonate a hydrogen bomb, and something tells me that it's a big mistake.  BUT I think Jack will surprise us all when his crazy plan this time actually works

The thing is, though, it's not HIS plan...it's Daniel's. I highly doubt Jack would have come up with this plan on his own. Daniel convinced him that this plan will work and set everything right. Daniel has convinced a LOT of people that he's right about these types of things. Why should Jack be any different.


Offline Novashannon

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 569
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2009, 02:55:28 PM »
That lasat was extremely sexist!!!!

Not to any man who's ever had to deal witha pregnant wife lol (which I have). Just a comment on the natural changes in hormones and to the body that a pregnant woman would undergo. The only way it would be sexist is if it was solely because of her gender, which I clearly showed I was not talking about. Calm. Down.


Quote
Kate has always loved Jack.  She is fond of Sawyer. Sawyer has slept with several women, but you don't talk about how HE can't make up his mind!!! Ana Lucia, Kate, Juliet.
That's because he USES people...he's consistent. Sawyer doesn't sleep around because he thinks he's in love with anyone, so no emotions are involved in his actions. If anything, Sawyer kept his emotions far too much in check. At least until lately.

Quote
Ditto Jack.  You seem to have a double standard there!

Wait, who besides Kate did Jack sleep with? The MOST Jack did was kiss Juliet...ONCE. lol.

And this thread is not titled "Who are the most emotional characters of Lost?", is it? Nope.

Again...calm down. :)

*EDIT: wrong thread reference lol...
I am only answering posts already here!  And I have BEEN a pregnant woman!  WE are no more illogical than men at any time in their cycles!

Offline WhatThe

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1421
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2009, 02:57:59 PM »
That lasat was extremely sexist!!!!

Not to any man who's ever had to deal witha pregnant wife lol (which I have). Just a comment on the natural changes in hormones and to the body that a pregnant woman would undergo. The only way it would be sexist is if it was solely because of her gender, which I clearly showed I was not talking about. Calm. Down.


Quote
Kate has always loved Jack.  She is fond of Sawyer. Sawyer has slept with several women, but you don't talk about how HE can't make up his mind!!! Ana Lucia, Kate, Juliet.
That's because he USES people...he's consistent. Sawyer doesn't sleep around because he thinks he's in love with anyone, so no emotions are involved in his actions. If anything, Sawyer kept his emotions far too much in check. At least until lately.

Quote
Ditto Jack.  You seem to have a double standard there!

Wait, who besides Kate did Jack sleep with? The MOST Jack did was kiss Juliet...ONCE. lol.

And this thread is not titled "Who are the most emotional characters of Lost?", is it? Nope.

Again...calm down. :)

*EDIT: wrong thread reference lol...
I am only answering posts already here!  And I have BEEN a pregnant woman!  WE are no more illogical than men at any time in their cycles!

I said "over-emotional", not "illogical".

Offline Maxor127

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1337
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2009, 03:14:42 PM »
Too bad Sawyer is a better leader than Jack any day.  Last night, I realized that every finale involves Jack having a great plan to "save" them that goes horribly wrong.  I guess you could make an argument about season 1's finale, but season 2 had Jack taking the fight to the Others and getting him and two others kidnapped along the way.

Not quite. Season 2 had Michael convincing Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley to help him try and rescue Walt, and convincing them that the Others were mostly old people and women with only a few guns, easy to overtake. Jack, though, made plans with Sayid to have him scout out the place first and set a fire once he's convinced their destination was safe. Quite a different take on how you condensed it lol.

Yeah, but Jack knew it was a trap and he went along with Michael's "plan" with his own secret plan he hatched with Sayid.  And while Jack's current plan may technically be Daniel's plan, Jack is championing it and even when asked if it will work, he says "yes, it will" but Kate has to add "he thinks..."

Offline WhatThe

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1421
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2009, 03:30:55 PM »
Too bad Sawyer is a better leader than Jack any day.  Last night, I realized that every finale involves Jack having a great plan to "save" them that goes horribly wrong.  I guess you could make an argument about season 1's finale, but season 2 had Jack taking the fight to the Others and getting him and two others kidnapped along the way.

Not quite. Season 2 had Michael convincing Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley to help him try and rescue Walt, and convincing them that the Others were mostly old people and women with only a few guns, easy to overtake. Jack, though, made plans with Sayid to have him scout out the place first and set a fire once he's convinced their destination was safe. Quite a different take on how you condensed it lol.

Yeah, but Jack knew it was a trap and he went along with Michael's "plan" with his own secret plan he hatched with Sayid.  And while Jack's current plan may technically be Daniel's plan, Jack is championing it and even when asked if it will work, he says "yes, it will" but Kate has to add "he thinks..."

Well, Jack suspected it might be a trap, which is why he made alternative plans with Sayid to take precautions just in case it was. Which, I think actually shows good leadership. But again, to me your original statement made it sound like Jack went sauntering off into the jungle intent on having it out with the Others only to get them all kidnapped, and that it was a lack of forethought that caused it.  Doing something without thinking it through would show poor leadership, which I assumed you were implying about Jack and the season 2 finale.

And, yeah, Jack is championing Daniel's plan much like Miles is championing doing what Daniel suggested, and much like Dr. Chang is actually evacuating tons of people based on only a brief interaction with Daniel. Even Eloise is determined to believe what Daniel claims to be true. So I can't really put much blame on Jack for giving Daniel's word a LOT of validity. Everyone else seems to be as well.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 03:38:15 PM by WhatThe »

Offline razzle-dazzle

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 698
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2009, 04:47:45 PM »
Maybe I should create a long quadrangle thread.
Can you please keep it to my Role Reversal topic?  :'(

Offline BobBX542

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2009, 04:56:45 PM »
Maybe I should create a long quadrangle thread.
Can you please keep it to my Role Reversal topic?  :'(

I doubt it.

Offline Luna C

  • Background Extra
  • *
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Role reversal Jack and Sawyer
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 09:54:49 PM »
I like your idea of a 'philisophical love triangle' :)  
...

In the case of Lost, we've had these concepts of duality shoved in our faces so many times, since the very start of the show (Adam and Eve and their black and white stones, black and white in backgammon, Man of Science / Man of Faith) etc.  I think maybe its been a little bit of a magician's slight of hand on the part of the writers - we've all been focusing on two things when really there is a third at play.  Maybe instead of Man of Science & Man of Faith, the way we should really be looking at it in a three-sided way:Man of Science, Man of Faith, and Man of Destiny(?) or Man of The Island(?).

Lets look at it this way - the three things represent who is in control.  Science tells us that we control everything that happens - whatever we do, there are consequences - actions and reactions.  There is no higher power or outside force involved.  Very representative of pre-Season 5 Jack.  Faith tells us that our control is limited - that the extent of our control is not so much what we do as what we believe and how strongly we believe it.  Very much representative of pre-Season 5 Locke.  And finally, destiny.  Whatever happened, happened.  Whatever will happen will happen.  We have no control, at all.  I wish I could say that this has somehow tied into Sawyer all along, but it sure ties into recent Sawyer quite a bit.    

And its always been shoved in our faces too - Locke vs Jack.  Much more so than Jack vs. Sawyer - but Jack vs. Sawyer was always there - it was just slightly less prominent.

I agree with this completely and have been saying the same thing (in real life, not on the boards) for some time.

People seem to want to view this show in very black-and-white terms, but from the very beginning, it's been clear it's nothing but shades of gray.