Author Topic: The man with many names has returned...  (Read 10542 times)

Offline vickilynn

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2009, 11:38:24 AM »
Its hard to say right now and I'm only trying to run with thoughts. We still don't know if they can change anyhting. But it is being suggested that they might be able to. If they can and do, I'd say the versions of the losties that crashed, when back in time, changed something will retain their memories and relationships. But if they stay in the past (or go further back) then their future selves may not have to go through everything they went through. Jack's dad might quit drinking. Sawyer's mom may never have an affair. Kate's dad is a stand up guy. Does anyone see what I'm trying to get at? The losties we know will remain the same in a different time. But then the 2004 versions of themselves will have completely different lives as destiny or the universe is not trying to get them to the island.

Yes, that makes sense...just weird trying to come to terms with two versions of the same character running around.

Offline grizn0

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2009, 11:39:29 AM »
You saw Star Trek this weekend didn't you? :)

Offline grizn0

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2009, 11:45:40 AM »
Going back and preventing your plane from crashing is the same thing as trying to kill your grandfather before your dad was conceived. All of the same restrictions apply.
I don't see how they are the same personally. If you kill your grandfather then yes, you effectively deny any existence of yourself and that doesn't jive. But the lives of the people who crashed on 815 were played out in a way that would always lead them to the island. The universe was manipulating events to unfold so they would all be lead to be on that plane that day. For some purpose. For some reason other than coincidence. So if they're "mission" is fulfilled... why would the island need them to crash again? Get used to the fact that there are two of the same person alive. We saw it with Miles. It can and has happened on the show. Deal with it.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2009, 12:55:22 PM »
Going back and preventing your plane from crashing is the same thing as trying to kill your grandfather before your dad was conceived. All of the same restrictions apply.

But you're not taking into consideration the premise that Daniel put out there in "the Variable". It's their present, so they can change things. Basically, any show dealing with Time travel has a set of rules they can use and play with, and on LOST, the idea is that you can go back and change things and affect the future (which happens to be your past). It's just something that you need to take a step back from and let happen.

Think about it this way, if we were to strictly follow all of the previous rules about time travel set up by previous writers, then wouldn't we be judging everything by H.G. Wells's "The Time Machine"?? I don't know if there are other earlier works, sorry.

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2009, 01:50:53 PM »
Going back and preventing your plane from crashing is the same thing as trying to kill your grandfather before your dad was conceived. All of the same restrictions apply.

But you're not taking into consideration the premise that Daniel put out there in "the Variable". It's their present, so they can change things. Basically, any show dealing with Time travel has a set of rules they can use and play with, and on LOST, the idea is that you can go back and change things and affect the future (which happens to be your past). It's just something that you need to take a step back from and let happen.

Think about it this way, if we were to strictly follow all of the previous rules about time travel set up by previous writers, then wouldn't we be judging everything by H.G. Wells's "The Time Machine"?? I don't know if there are other earlier works, sorry.

Where and when did this rule get thrown out there? Last I checked Dan called himself a variable and ended up getting shot by his mother like he was supposed to. It happened in her past so it happened in his present, no change there. This may be their present but it is the island's past, and what ever happened, happened.

If they do change things and prevent the swan from building a button, then this requires an alternate timeline to be created. One time line where they crash and do everything we have seen, and one time line where they fly harmlessly over an uncharted island and land in LA.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2009, 02:38:22 PM »
It got thrown out in "the Variable". He wasn't saying that he was the only variable, he was saying that all of them are, and because it is their present, they can affect it.

Offline lovinlost

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2009, 02:51:55 PM »
I was completely disappointed that Sawyer got into the sub and LEFT Hurley and everyone behind!  That doesn't seem like the Sawyer I know and love! 

The only thing I could think was that maybe he felt "Heck, I already jumped out of a helicopter once for them and saved their a***s!  It's not my fault they came back!  It's my turn to get out of Dodge!"  But still...  he likes Hugo!  I can't believe he left him.

Hurley is going to be so reproachful.  "Dude, I never thought you'd leave us..."    :(

I was surprised by this as well but in the days since the show has aired, I believe now that Sawyer has a plan.  Even Hurley said something along the lines of, "Sawyer always has a plan."

Maybe the sub will stop at the underground Hydra station and he'll kick some butt there?  I'm not sure how it will happen, but I hope that he DOES have a plan to help the rest of them.

Offline lovinlost

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2009, 02:55:10 PM »
I guess. But if that happens, everyone else is saved. Jack is ready to sacrifice, but she isn't.

niether is Sawyer

in the previews for next week we see Sawyer on the island;
how can this be ? he's on the sub and he and Juliette left ?
I think Kate tells them what Jack is going to do; Sawyer says, "no way"
Sawyer is not going to give up the woman he loves (Juliette, in case you're wondering, ha ha)
he in love, he's happy, he's talking about freedom, his life as a con man is over, the burder he's had all is life has been lifted

he's going to buy microsoft stock, bet the cowboys in superbowl '78, be rich, marry Juliette and live happily ever after ;

but now Jack wants to screw all that up

Sawyer is going to take over the sub and make them take him back to the island so he can stop Jack, even if it means killing him


Good one!  I have to agree at least with your reasoning, that Sawyer is going to F-R-E-A-K when Kate tells him what Jack's plan is!

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2009, 03:12:17 PM »
It got thrown out in "the Variable". He wasn't saying that he was the only variable, he was saying that all of them are, and because it is their present, they can affect it.
Their present is still the island's past, whatever they do has already been done. This means they can not change anything, their freewill lets them decide how it happened/happens.

Offline BobBX542

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2009, 03:32:34 PM »
It got thrown out in "the Variable". He wasn't saying that he was the only variable, he was saying that all of them are, and because it is their present, they can affect it.
Their present is still the island's past, whatever they do has already been done. This means they can not change anything, their freewill lets them decide how it happened/happens.

That's what Daniel was saying though. Because it is their (Jack, kate, Sawyer, Juliette, etc.) present, they can affect it, and therefore the future. But no one else could because their (Horace, Radzinsky, Phil, etc) present already happened, and THEY did what they did, but Jack and crew are experiencing the past as their present, so they can change things. I think I just repeated myself twice. Hmmmmm, weird. But anyway, you see what I'm saying?? Not that you agree with it, but does it make sense??

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2009, 03:40:19 PM »
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Offline grizn0

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2009, 04:14:32 PM »
Writers_strike, are taking the stance that they could be doing different things this time around but it can still be regarded as "whatever happened happened" from the island's point of view? If you are, I finally get you!

Offline BobBX542

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2009, 04:31:29 PM »
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2009, 04:37:16 PM »
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.
Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think.  :-[

Offline BobBX542

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Re: The man with many names has returned...
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2009, 04:38:49 PM »
Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right?  ???

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.
Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think.  :-[

YES!! But they haven't done it yet, so nothing has changwed yet. Sort of like how Desmond suddenly had the "memory" of Daniel telling him to go find his mother. Desmond didn't remember until Daniel told him.