The man with many names has returned...

[BobBX542]

Oh, right. Bob's not here and somebody's gotta wildly proclaim something, cause it's Tuesday, right? lolol

EXCUSE ME?!?!

[Writers_Strike]

Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right? 

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.

Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think. 

YES!! But they haven't done it yet, so nothing has changwed yet. Sort of like how Desmond suddenly had the "memory" of Daniel telling him to go find his mother. Desmond didn't remember until Daniel told him.

I always hated that scene because no matter when Dan told him, it was always Des' past. He told him 3-6 years ago so no matter Daniels perspective of time, it was still Desmonds past so he should have remembered all along.

[BobBX542]

Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right? 

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.

Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think. 

YES!! But they haven't done it yet, so nothing has changwed yet. Sort of like how Desmond suddenly had the "memory" of Daniel telling him to go find his mother. Desmond didn't remember until Daniel told him.

I always hated that scene because no matter when Dan told him, it was always Des' past. He told him 3-6 years ago so no matter Daniels perspective of time, it was still Desmonds past so he should have remembered all along.

But that's the point of the scene. It helps to support the theory put forth in "The Variable". The past is always as it was, unless acted upon by one of the variables. If Daniel never would have done that, then obviously Desmond wouldn't have remembered, but BECAUSE Daniel did it at the moment, that's when it entered Desmond's memory.

[grizn0]

I think some people are getting upset because the writers are not following what they think is proper time travel rules. But we are at the mercy of the writer's idea of what time travel is, what the implications or rules are, and how it affects the future, past, and present. The reality is we have to stop thinking we are right and they are wrong. Cause we're wrong according to them.

[BobBX542]

I think some people are getting upset because the writers are not following what they think is proper time travel rules. But we are at the mercy of the writer's idea of what time travel is, what the implications or rules are, and how it affects the future, past, and present. The reality is we have to stop thinking we are right and they are wrong. Cause we're wrong according to them.

We can only be wrong once all the rules have been established, and then go against them. Ever since Daniel "explained" the concept of traveling through time on the island, everyone thought that was it, but then he added other ideas later. I think to myself sometimes about how different some people's posts would be if Daniel would have thrown in the part about the variable when he was explaining about the skipping record.

[opgelost]

the Risk game has only been 3 year ago, and would be included in the changed time line, I'm saying that he did change something already, but we don't know it because we have only experienced this "new" timeline. we don't know what the other one was.

That's what I am saying for weeks. Everything we saw is the changed timeline.
Without them in the 70ies there would be no Daniel, Charlotte, Miles, Widmore, Hawking, Ben, Ethan, Richard, Eloise and island
in 2004, no Radzinski in the swan, because everybody would have died in the incident.
They made changes and therefor there is a hadge, there are people who left the island in time, there was a crash etc.

[BobBX542]

the Risk game has only been 3 year ago, and would be included in the changed time line, I'm saying that he did change something already, but we don't know it because we have only experienced this "new" timeline. we don't know what the other one was.

That's what I am saying for weeks. Everything we saw is the changed timeline.
Without them in the 70ies there would be no Daniel, Charlotte, Miles, Widmore, Hawking, Ben, Ethan, Richard, Eloise and island
in 2004, no Radzinski in the swan, because everybody would have died in the incident.
They made changes and therefor there is a hadge, there are people who left the island in time, there was a crash etc.

So am I going out on a limb here by saying that you think next season is going to be about what happened after the change??

[Writers_Strike]

Caught in a time loop there, huh Bob? lol

I see what you're saying but it doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Jack & Co are in their present. But if Jack decides he's gonna explode Jughead, where previously he hadn't, that means that he had never before gone into the Others camp to ask for help. Which means that Richard and Ellie never helped Jack. But they did, we saw them, so... Richard, Ellie, etc., they all have to make decisions having to do with Jack and Jughead where they never had to make those decisions before. If Jack & Co can effect the outcome of The Incident, then they MUST effect how the other people on the island react to it.

Right? 

Yes, EXACTLY!! But none of that happens until they do it, because it's their present. Stop seeing it from the future and looking back at what HAPPENED, and start seeing it from the present and what's GOING TO HAPPEN.

Well now I'm at confusion X 1,000,000 cause I thought I was contradicting your first post and then you agreed with me, lol! So... "whatever happened, happened," isn't actually happening? Is that what you're saying? That they're changing how 2004 is gonna work out for the island? That's the only way I can make sense of this... I think. 

YES!! But they haven't done it yet, so nothing has changwed yet. Sort of like how Desmond suddenly had the "memory" of Daniel telling him to go find his mother. Desmond didn't remember until Daniel told him.

I always hated that scene because no matter when Dan told him, it was always Des' past. He told him 3-6 years ago so no matter Daniels perspective of time, it was still Desmonds past so he should have remembered all along.

But that's the point of the scene. It helps to support the theory put forth in "The Variable". The past is always as it was, unless acted upon by one of the variables. If Daniel never would have done that, then obviously Desmond wouldn't have remembered, but BECAUSE Daniel did it at the moment, that's when it entered Desmond's memory.

I think I get what your saying but I still have a problem with it.
What you are saying is that Dan and the Time Traveling 815ers(a good band name) are on the same conscience wavelenght as 2008 Desmond and the O6. That their 2 presents are/were happening at the same time. This way what Dan said to Des came to him that night. Kind of like in time cop when VanDam give the young bad guy a cut on his face we see the old bad guy form a scar, except mentaly.

[grizn0]

These ideas are great. I guess that scene was a lot more important than we orginally thought.

[Floyd25]

What ever happened Happened.  You can change the future but ya can't change the past.  It already happened.

[BobBX542]

I think I get what your saying but I still have a problem with it.
What you are saying is that Dan and the Time Traveling 815ers(a good band name) are on the same conscience wavelenght as 2008 Desmond and the O6. That their 2 presents are/were happening at the same time. This way what Dan said to Des came to him that night. Kind of like in time cop when VanDam give the young bad guy a cut on his face we see the old bad guy form a scar, except mentaly.

In a way, yeah. I hadn't thought about the whole wavlength idea, but yeah. Also, keep in mind, I'm not trying to change your mind. It would be a nice ego boost if something I said on here made someone else go, "Yeah, that does make sense, I'm on board." but you believe what you want. I'm just trying to make my thoughts make sense.

[grizn0]

So even though they are in different years (time periods) they're experiencing things at the same time on a conciousness level? I think I like that a lot. So Desmond's memory only came to him when Dan created it at that point in their concious lives. And I'm willing to bet that sort of thing could only happen between those two.

[BobBX542]

So even though they are in different years (time periods) they're experiencing things at the same time on a conciousness level? I think I like that a lot. So Desmond's memory only came to him when Dan created it at that point in their concious lives. And I'm willing to bet that sort of thing could only happen between those two.

I think that it is probably more likely that it can only happen if Desmond is involved if that makes sense. Since Desmond is uniquiely special (according to Dan), then if Desmond gets or sends a message from another time, it will work.

[grizn0]

So even though they are in different years (time periods) they're experiencing things at the same time on a conciousness level? I think I like that a lot. So Desmond's memory only came to him when Dan created it at that point in their concious lives. And I'm willing to bet that sort of thing could only happen between those two.

I think that it is probably more likely that it can only happen if Desmond is involved if that makes sense. Since Desmond is uniquiely special (according to Dan), then if Desmond gets or sends a message from another time, it will work.

Ok, yeah! And it is probably due to the fact that Daniel was one of the variable that it worked like that.

[BobBX542]

So even though they are in different years (time periods) they're experiencing things at the same time on a conciousness level? I think I like that a lot. So Desmond's memory only came to him when Dan created it at that point in their concious lives. And I'm willing to bet that sort of thing could only happen between those two.

I think that it is probably more likely that it can only happen if Desmond is involved if that makes sense. Since Desmond is uniquiely special (according to Dan), then if Desmond gets or sends a message from another time, it will work.

Ok, yeah! And it is probably due to the fact that Daniel was one of the variable that it worked like that.

INDEED!! Oh my god, Griz, are we like, agreeing on something??