Author Topic: Eloise's reasons  (Read 14697 times)

Offline GUTZandRAGE

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 407
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2009, 07:14:21 PM »
I'm never serious.

Offline KoKoNut

  • DHARMA Scientist
  • ******
  • Posts: 7886
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2009, 07:17:15 PM »
I'm never serious.

Are you serious GUTZ??

Offline GUTZandRAGE

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 407
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2009, 07:32:04 PM »
never...

But does that mean I am serious about never being serious? Or does it mean I'm not serious about anything at all. And is that a Paradox? And if a wood chuck could chuck wood how much would wood would a wood chuck chuck?

*does the wooshy Lost sound*

Offline KoKoNut

  • DHARMA Scientist
  • ******
  • Posts: 7886
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2009, 07:33:17 PM »
never...

But does that mean I am serious about never being serious? Or does it mean I'm not serious about anything at all. And is that a Paradox? And if a wood chuck could chuck wood how much would wood would a wood chuck chuck?

*does the wooshy Lost sound*


 :D  You're an enigma GUTZ!!!

Offline opgelost

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1826
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2009, 08:27:51 PM »
I feel sorry for her.  You could tell for most of the episode that she was begrudgingly sending Daniel to his death, even as a child. 

I guess we can assume that Jack & Kate rush in to Village Hostile and explain everything to Ellie, thus putting her on the path we see her on today.  I'm willing to bet that even though she believes that "what happend happend", after Kate & Jack tell her about Daniel and his variable theory- she still hopes that he (Daniel) will be able to change the outcome of events.  Thus, starting the cycle of prodding him to make Physics/Science his sole focus.

But Dan goes to find Ellie in the hostilecamp, because "she is the only person on this island who can get us back to where we belong."
If he believes that his mother in 1977, before she knows everything that Jack and Kate will tell her, is able to send them back to 2008,
than there must be more in mrs. Hawking than just knowing the future.

Offline Mrs Hume

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 3556
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2009, 09:23:16 PM »
very interesting. very interesting. humm. you always make me think opgelost.

 I wonder if it is as simple as if he tells her something now (1977) , she will be like Desmond and then suddenly know it in 2007 and be able to do something to help? another theory is on the tip of my tongue but can't articulate it yet...

Offline LostGirlDeb

  • Dharma VIP
  • *******
  • Posts: 14531
  • Live Together Die Alone
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2009, 09:26:30 PM »
I don't understand Eloise's motivation for pushing her son to his death.  She didn't course correct or let destiny do its work or anything, she willfully controlled his destiny and fate and kept driving him towards this singular goal and his ultimate fate.  I don't understand her reasons for it at all.  If she believes that things can't be changed and the universe will keep course correcting itself, then she wouldn't have needed to sabotage Daniel's life like this.  And despite all of that, what is gained by Daniel's death?  Unless he really isn't dead and he still has an important part to play?

I agree with this thinking but I also think that she maybe had faith in something we don't know about.  Maybe faith in her son to be able to change something so it wouldn't lead to the shooting.  Maybe she sent back the 815'ers for that reason and maybe that is why Dan was saying that she was wrong...I don't know..... I have really enjoyed reading this thread though

And I'm with Sol I don't want him to be dead..that would suck.  He seems to be the only one giving us answers

oh and Hi Hurley's girl!! I also loved your red string blue sting analysis
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 09:38:05 PM by LostGirlDeb »

Offline HurleysGirl

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1631
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2009, 09:33:48 PM »
oh and Hi Hurley's girl!! I also loved your red string blue sting analysis[/color]

Heya darlin'  I have loved all sorts of alternate reality theories (time travel, six dimensional time space continuum, etc) since I got hooked on Heinlein.  But the only way to wrap my head around it is pictorally.  So the string thing really works for me.  What we perceive to be linear can have all sorts of twists and loops.

Can't say how long I'll be back (been really busy since the move to Mass) but it's fun to see all the new and old faces on the boards!

Offline Maxor127

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1337
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2009, 03:05:38 AM »
I don't understand Eloise's motivation for pushing her son to his death.  She didn't course correct or let destiny do its work or anything, she willfully controlled his destiny and fate and kept driving him towards this singular goal and his ultimate fate.  I don't understand her reasons for it at all.  If she believes that things can't be changed and the universe will keep course correcting itself, then she wouldn't have needed to sabotage Daniel's life like this.  And despite all of that, what is gained by Daniel's death?  Unless he really isn't dead and he still has an important part to play?

I agree with this thinking but I also think that she maybe had faith in something we don't know about.  Maybe faith in her son to be able to change something so it wouldn't lead to the shooting.  Maybe she sent back the 815'ers for that reason and maybe that is why Dan was saying that she was wrong...I don't know..... I have really enjoyed reading this thread though

And I'm with Sol I don't want him to be dead..that would suck.  He seems to be the only one giving us answers

oh and Hi Hurley's girl!! I also loved your red string blue sting analysis

If that's true, that was the worst case of a mother putting her faith in her child since Heroes last year when Hiro's mom put faith in trusting him with the catalyst.  I guess it all depends on if Daniel is really dead or if he'll pull a Locke/Ben.

Offline ukslim

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2009, 06:32:44 AM »
Eloise is unique because, as we all know, she has the ability to foresee future events. I do not believe that this is a result of time travelling on her part (but I admit that I cannot altogether rule that out as a possibility), so in my opinion, she has not "already lived it". The only other explanation is that she possesses a special ability to see into the future for a currently unspecified reason.

So my answer to your question is that she has seen the future to some extent, not lived it.

One possibility is that she has no special powers, nor has she time travelled herself, but that a visitor from the future (there are plenty around!) has told her about the future in some detail. This could explain the confusion over Desmond's ring -- she's told he doesn't marry her, but she makes wrong assumptions about the fine details.

But what happens, happens: even when it's Mrs Hawking making mistakes about what she was told would happen.

Further speculation: I reckon Eloise has some quasi-religious belief that if her present deviates from the future that's been revealed to her, the fabric of the universe collapses or something. God help us all! So she feels it's her duty to fulfil the self-fulfiling prophesy, even though it's a sacrifice. I like the idea that she's wrong about this: she doesn't need to work to make what happened happen, but of course she does it because she always did/does.

Very Oedipus.

Offline rhythm

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 310
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #100 on: May 01, 2009, 12:31:02 PM »
I feel sorry for her.  You could tell for most of the episode that she was begrudgingly sending Daniel to his death, even as a child. 

I guess we can assume that Jack & Kate rush in to Village Hostile and explain everything to Ellie, thus putting her on the path we see her on today.  I'm willing to bet that even though she believes that "what happend happend", after Kate & Jack tell her about Daniel and his variable theory- she still hopes that he (Daniel) will be able to change the outcome of events.  Thus, starting the cycle of prodding him to make Physics/Science his sole focus.

But Dan goes to find Ellie in the hostilecamp, because "she is the only person on this island who can get us back to where we belong."
If he believes that his mother in 1977, before she knows everything that Jack and Kate will tell her, is able to send them back to 2008,
than there must be more in mrs. Hawking than just knowing the future.


At the risk of sounding contrite: "um, okay..what does that have to do with my post?"

Offline BobBX542

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #101 on: May 01, 2009, 04:17:30 PM »
She probably had never done it until now. Since this was Dan's present, that must mean Dan had never died at the hands of his mother. It can be said his mother does not remember her killing him, but can foresee his imminent death. I know she told Penny she could not see what the future holds, but it's not above any of the Others to simply lie to people, regardless of the situation.

Of course she remembers shooting him. Why do you think she gave Widmore the little speech about sacrifice?? She might as well have said at the end of that, "...as in this example." and then cut the scene to Daniel getting killed by his own mother.

I think that Eloise's choice to let Daniel die falls into the exact same reason that she didn't tell the man in the red shoes that he was about to die. She knew that if she didn't make him go to the island, that there would have been some other, possibly more painful/horrific, way that he would have died. She is obviously a firm believer in fate and destiny, and since it has already happened, it has to happen.

Since we're talking about free will and destiny, I posted this somewhere else, and I figure I'll put it out there to as many places as I can. It seems to me that last night's episode was kind of telling us that since the time travelers were experiencing the past (1977) as their present, and that made them the variable(s) that they can in effect change the past. Like Jack not operating on Ben made Kate take him to the Others, and that's how he became the evil dude he is. BUT, Jack could have operated on Ben and saved him, but no one else on the island could have, because they didn't.

Bob Help me with a stupid question: so if Jack had saved Ben...would Ben still be evil somehow because of course correction or not.  I am so bloody confused. I have coconut milk for brains so bear with me.  :-\

Sorry it took me so long to reply, there has been alot to catch up on. In my theory, no Ben would not have been evil after Jack saved him. The entire course of events would have unfolded differently. I would say that maybe course correction would force Ben to become an other later, but the way I see course correction, it has only really affected death, so I don't think that course correction would come into play here.

She probably had never done it until now. Since this was Dan's present, that must mean Dan had never died at the hands of his mother. It can be said his mother does not remember her killing him, but can foresee his imminent death. I know she told Penny she could not see what the future holds, but it's not above any of the Others to simply lie to people, regardless of the situation.

Of course she remembers shooting him. Why do you think she gave Widmore the little speech about sacrifice?? She might as well have said at the end of that, "...as in this example." and then cut the scene to Daniel getting killed by his own mother.

I think that Eloise's choice to let Daniel die falls into the exact same reason that she didn't tell the man in the red shoes that he was about to die. She knew that if she didn't make him go to the island, that there would have been some other, possibly more painful/horrific, way that he would have died. She is obviously a firm believer in fate and destiny, and since it has already happened, it has to happen.

Since we're talking about free will and destiny, I posted this somewhere else, and I figure I'll put it out there to as many places as I can. It seems to me that last night's episode was kind of telling us that since the time travelers were experiencing the past (1977) as their present, and that made them the variable(s) that they can in effect change the past. Like Jack not operating on Ben made Kate take him to the Others, and that's how he became the evil dude he is. BUT, Jack could have operated on Ben and saved him, but no one else on the island could have, because they didn't.

this is what I've been saying over and over. what happened happened might be a rule of time travel but it can't be like this for LOST because otherwise what is their goal and what are we supposed to hope for . if I can't hope for a good outcome then i don't want to be invested. so there has to be a chance for them to succeed and change something. Dan said his mother might have been wrong.  maybe there regular everyday existence and free will choices they make ,on the island in 1977 wont change anything but if they find out the one big thing they could do differently, it could.

Funny thing is that I was die hard on the idea that WH,H, and like Daniel, I wasn't thinking about the anomaly of the survivors.

Offline MangoBingo

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1510
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #102 on: May 01, 2009, 04:25:40 PM »
The last thing that Daniel told Jack and Kate, was that he believed his hypothesis about the past being unchangeable to be incorrect...

Jack and Kate are bound to speak to someone about this revelation at some point...

Eloise will eventually learn that her future son believed that the past could be changed...

So, why then set him upon the path which leads to him being killed?


Offline BobBX542

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #103 on: May 01, 2009, 04:48:10 PM »
The last thing that Daniel told Jack and Kate, was that he believed his hypothesis about the past being unchangeable to be incorrect...

Jack and Kate are bound to speak to someone about this revelation at some point...

Eloise will eventually learn that her future son believed that the past could be changed...

So, why then set him upon the path which leads to him being killed?



Because it already happened. Using your theory, if she didn't send him on that path, then she wouldn't have known to send him on that path.

Offline opgelost

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1826
    • View Profile
Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #104 on: May 01, 2009, 05:21:19 PM »
I feel sorry for her.  You could tell for most of the episode that she was begrudgingly sending Daniel to his death, even as a child. 

I guess we can assume that Jack & Kate rush in to Village Hostile and explain everything to Ellie, thus putting her on the path we see her on today.  I'm willing to bet that even though she believes that "what happend happend", after Kate & Jack tell her about Daniel and his variable theory- she still hopes that he (Daniel) will be able to change the outcome of events.  Thus, starting the cycle of prodding him to make Physics/Science his sole focus.

But Dan goes to find Ellie in the hostilecamp, because "she is the only person on this island who can get us back to where we belong."
If he believes that his mother in 1977, before she knows everything that Jack and Kate will tell her, is able to send them back to 2008,
than there must be more in mrs. Hawking than just knowing the future.

At the risk of sounding contrite: "um, okay..what does that have to do with my post?"

That according to me Ellie's path is not only determined by what Jack and Kate are going to tell her, but there is more
that she can do or knows, because Dan says that she can bring them back to 2008, before she ever meets Jack and Kate.

And I was getting back to the subject of the thread and quoted the first post, because all the posts before mine were about the seriousness of GutzandRage.  ;)