Author Topic: Eloise's reasons  (Read 16572 times)

Offline rhythm

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2009, 01:05:50 AM »
Eloise said that for the first time, she does not know what's going to happen now.  I think she means that, her whole life (from the time in 1977 that she shot an intruder into their camp) that she was going to have a son, that he was going to be a gifted physicist, that he was going to travel through time, and that she was going to shoot him in 1977 on the island.  She did all in her power, all her life, to put things into place such that this chain of events would be followed... apparently (as someone else said above) because she is convinced that what happened, happened, and cannot be changed.  So in a sense, until she sent the Oceanic 6 back to the island, she always knew what was coming.  (I don't think she could see the future; she knew only what she had surmised by Daniel's appearance in 1977.)  Now, however, since the Oceanic 6 have been sent back, she no longer has any idea what the future (her future, in 2007) holds.

Agreed.

Offline GUTZandRAGE

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2009, 01:08:34 AM »
And this bothers me.

It seems that all those who came from the present (2004 or 2005) are not affected, but the people who existed before them had already been affected by the interactions they had with the "Losties". But if Daniel's mother had never interacted with Daniel before he traveled to the past and got himself shot, how could she remember shooting him before she sent him to the island?

I'm sorry, but this is confusing. And what makes it even more confusing is that there simply is no level ground here.

Offline HurleysGirl

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2009, 01:13:40 AM »
She probably had never done it until now. Since this was Dan's present, that must mean Dan had never died at the hands of his mother. It can be said his mother does not remember her killing him, but can foresee his imminent death. I know she told Penny she could not see what the future holds, but it's not above any of the Others to simply lie to people, regardless of the situation.

The only reason that doesn't jive for me is that Widmore clearly remembered Locke being on the Island in the 50's.  So if that truly took place, then why wouldn't her shooting Daniel have taken place?

It may be Daniel's present, but his present is taking place in his mother's past.  Therefore (and here is where you really have to bend your mind into a Mobius strip) she shot her son before she had him (her present) but he was not shot until he had become an adult (his present).  When dealing with time travel (and BTW ha, ha Juggy - you were wrong) each person has their own linear time which intersects with others' linear times at different points of time.  OK, it sounds like gibberish but it's late, and it would be easier to understand if I could draw a picture.

Offline jamesl

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 01:17:37 AM »
And this bothers me.

It seems that all those who came from the present (2004 or 2005) are not affected, but the people who existed before them had already been affected by the interactions they had with the "Losties". But if Daniel's mother had never interacted with Daniel before he traveled to the past and got himself shot, how could she remember shooting him before she sent him to the island?

I'm sorry, but this is confusing. And what makes it even more confusing is that there simply is no level ground here.
i don't understand your question
she remembers shooting killing him because she talks about the scarifice in sending him back
so she knows he's going to die, and she knows how he's going to die

Offline HurleysGirl

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 01:22:50 AM »
And this bothers me.

It seems that all those who came from the present (2004 or 2005) are not affected, but the people who existed before them had already been affected by the interactions they had with the "Losties". But if Daniel's mother had never interacted with Daniel before he traveled to the past and got himself shot, how could she remember shooting him before she sent him to the island?

I'm sorry, but this is confusing. And what makes it even more confusing is that there simply is no level ground here.

Ah but there is.  Imagine if the time experienced by all of the Losties who have traveled back to 1977 is a red string with one end of the string being the beginning of their shared experience and the other end of the string is their present.  Then imagine the time experienced by the common others (Ellie, Charles and Richard) as a blue string with the same ends.  If you laid the strings  on a table, the blue string would start on the left and the red string would start before the blue string ends (like this --------======) in a typical linear universe.  But add in the time travel element, and you have to take the end of the red string and loop it back to a spot somewhere on the blue string (1977) - so the blue string would still be straight but the red string would start straight but then loop back.  

Does that help at all???

Offline GUTZandRAGE

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2009, 01:27:31 AM »
I have trouble reasoning how time flows. If it's not a loop, then at one time it was 1977 and there was no Dan Faraday. There couldn't have been a Dan Faraday because he was not born and he had not gone to the island and he had not gone back in time to get himself shot. I'm sorry if my explanation is confusing, but I'm having trouble coming to terms with what's going on.

If it's a loop, then I get it, Faraday always goes back, he always gets shot, his mother always remembers and always sends him there. If it's not then an original time-line had to exist, one without Daniel or any of the survivors in 1977. I think the more I try to reason the more I lose myself.

It's better not to mind me until I work this one out.

Offline HurleysGirl

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2009, 01:33:34 AM »
It is a loop if you focus on the constant.  What Daniel was saying was that people, due to the concept of free will, are the variable and therefore it is possible to break some part of the loop (the Incident) and alter the future.  Which is a bit of a paradox, because, if the loop is broken and the Incident does not occur, then 815 does not crash and there is no jumpy purple sky thing and Farriday never returns to '77 to prevent the Incident, which means the Incident occurs, 815 crashes, etc. etc.  Paradox.

OK, now I know I've read too much Heinlein

Offline GeoJeremy

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2009, 01:51:31 AM »
I've thoroughly enjoyed everyone's interpretations as to the nature of time in the universe of Lost. Here is my take:

The show only chronicles a single iteration of the timeline of the characters. Therefore, if there ever was a 1977 where Daniel Faraday did not exist is of no relevance to us. What is relevant is that in the iteration of the timeline that we are watching, Daniel Faraday is shot by Eloise Hawking when he travels to the year 1977.

Although several iterations of the timeline of these characters are possible, the show Lost only chronicles one of them. If the Losties do succeed in preventing Oceanic 815 from crashing, this does not represent a paradox, because although it may prevent subsequent iterations of their timelines from having to experience the plane crash and all of the events that follow, the iteration of the timeline of the characters that the show is chronicling will not have changed.

This is just my take on how time works in the Lost universe. I believe that the variety of interpretations of the nature of time in Lost stems primarily from our complete lack of experience with the phenomenon in real life, and therefore, we should have as many interpretations as we have posters.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 01:53:58 AM by GeoJeremy »

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2009, 01:55:05 AM »
Then someone explain this:

MS. HAWKING: Never done this before have you?

[Camera reveals Desmond in a second hand shop.]

DESMOND: Is it that obvious?

MS. HAWKING: I can always tell the first timers. Well, then, may I ask your price range?

DESMOND: I'm not a man of means...

MS. HAWKING: Oh...

DESMOND: I hope to -- one day...

MS. HAWKING: I have just the thing. [she shows him a ring] This won't blind any queens, to be sure, but still has the sparkle of life.

DESMOND: I'll take it.

MS. HAWKING: [surprised] I'm sorry?

DESMOND: It's perfect. I'll take it.

MS. HAWKING: No you won't. Give me the ring. Give it here.

DESMOND: I don't understand.

MS. HAWKING: This is wrong. You don't buy the ring. You have second thoughts; you walk right out that door. So, come on, let's have it.

DESMOND: I don't know what you're on about.

MS. HAWKING: You don't buy the ring, Desmond.

DESMOND: How do you know my name?

MS. HAWKING: Well, I know your name as well as I know that you that don't ask Penny to marry you. In fact, you break her heart. Well, breaking her heart is, of course, what drives you in a few short years from now to enter that sailing race -- to prove her father wrong -- which brings you to the island where you spend the next 3 years of your life entering numbers into the computer until you are forced to turn that failsafe key. And if you don't do those things, Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead. So give me that sodding ring.
__________________________________________

Has she seen the future here ? or already lived it?

Offline GeoJeremy

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2009, 02:07:36 AM »
Has she seen the future here ? or already lived it?

Eloise is unique because, as we all know, she has the ability to foresee future events. I do not believe that this is a result of time travelling on her part (but I admit that I cannot altogether rule that out as a possibility), so in my opinion, she has not "already lived it". The only other explanation is that she possesses a special ability to see into the future for a currently unspecified reason.

So my answer to your question is that she has seen the future to some extent, not lived it.

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2009, 02:13:32 AM »
The time was always a loop (on the show)


If it was a street it looped off and picked back up                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  


Offline hyperform

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2009, 02:17:38 AM »
time is relative to everyone who experiences it, it is not a loop, but a straight line for every different person, but everyone has their own line

Offline Sweet Old Lady

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2009, 02:18:07 AM »
I think Eloise sent Daniel to the island to be healed, not killed.  That's what she told him.  And the sacrifice is that he will never be the same again, just like Ben.  She must remember shooting him, right?  Maybe he didn't die.  Maybe he got templed.  I hope he didn't die.

Offline this is some crazy stuff

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2009, 02:21:52 AM »
Im sure that this always happened.  She knew that she killed her own son.  Daniel said to Jack that it is there present.  as in everyone that went back to 1977 from 2004/2007.  But Eloise killing Daniel was Eloise past,  her past can not be changed. 

Offline jamesl

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2009, 02:24:47 AM »
I think Eloise sent Daniel to the island to be healed, not killed.  That's what she told him.  And the sacrifice is that he will never be the same again, just like Ben.  She must remember shooting him, right?  Maybe he didn't die.  Maybe he got templed.  I hope he didn't die.

I also hope he's not dead

I really hope this is him speaking in this video, and I hope its a real scene that we have yet to see,
not just some kind of fake scene to get people's interest

starts at the 59 second mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo6Q7gzUjI8

so, it'll be interesting to see how this fits in