Author Topic: Eloise's reasons  (Read 14696 times)

Offline rhythm

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Eloise's reasons
« on: April 29, 2009, 11:53:20 PM »
I feel sorry for her.  You could tell for most of the episode that she was begrudgingly sending Daniel to his death, even as a child. 

I guess we can assume that Jack & Kate rush in to Village Hostile and explain everything to Ellie, thus putting her on the path we see her on today.  I'm willing to bet that even though she believes that "what happend happend", after Kate & Jack tell her about Daniel and his variable theory- she still hopes that he (Daniel) will be able to change the outcome of events.  Thus, starting the cycle of prodding him to make Physics/Science his sole focus.

Offline lostlady

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Eloise's reasons
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 11:54:44 PM »
Why did she encourage Daniel to go back to the island when she knew she would shoot him before he could do anything? As far as she knows, she shot Daniel, he dies, the incident happens, the button has to get pushed, the plane crashes.... Why did she send him back?

Offline rhythm

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 11:56:51 PM »
She had to.  It was going to happen anyway.  Course correction.

Offline hyperform

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 11:57:59 PM »
I said this in another thread, she had too, just like she had to let the guy with the red shoes die in Flashes Before Your Eyes

Offline jamesl

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 11:59:42 PM »
I said this in another thread, she had too, just like she had to let the guy with the red shoes die in Flashes Before Your Eyes

we still don't know how she knew that was going to happen

Offline rhythm

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 12:01:21 AM »
I said this in another thread, she had too, just like she had to let the guy with the red shoes die in Flashes Before Your Eyes

we still don't know how she knew that was going to happen
That whole sequence was rather weird.  Still can't determine if it were a dream, a vision from the island, etc.  I mean I can't determine.

Offline GUTZandRAGE

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 12:06:09 AM »
She's a fanatic. And she is insane.

Offline GeoJeremy

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2009, 12:29:26 AM »
I think this thread directly addresses one of the major themes of the series up to this point: destiny vs. free will. Obviously, Eloise's actions throughout the majority of the episode suggest that she believes that one's destiny must be fulfilled regardless of the outcomes. Even if it means having to murder your own child.

My question is so: where does this strict determinism that is so deeply embedded in Eloise's personal philosophy originate? In other words, at some point after Faraday dies, she accepts that she has murdered her own child, and even though she has the means by which to prevent this from ever happening, she refuses to do so. She feels it is more important to fulfill her destiny and to allow her son to fulfill his. Why?

Perhaps we are given hints to her motivations through the conversation she has with Penny. As she says to Penny in the hospital waiting room, "for the first time in a long time, [Eloise] does not know what will happen next." Some event has changed the nature of the game with respect to Eloise's involvement in the "conflict".

I speculate that Eloise's belief in strict determinism is a consequence of her ability to see into the future. Eloise has seen first hand the Course Correcting nature of time (namely, that the universe follows a set path of events, regardless of what may be alter it). It is only natural for someone with such a unique ability and perspective to prescribe to a deterministic set of beliefs. Perhaps it is precisely her highly unusual relationship with time and the universe that influenced her to send Daniel to the island to be killed by her own hands.

P.S. First post. Be gentle.

Offline lovinlost

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 12:36:01 AM »
I think this thread directly addresses one of the major themes of the series up to this point: destiny vs. free will. Obviously, Eloise's actions throughout the majority of the episode suggest that she believes that one's destiny must be fulfilled regardless of the outcomes. Even if it means having to murder your own child.

My question is so: where does this strict determinism that is so deeply embedded in Eloise's personal philosophy originate? In other words, at some point after Faraday dies, she accepts that she has murdered her own child, and even though she has the means by which to prevent this from ever happening, she refuses to do so. She feels it is more important to fulfill her destiny and to allow her son to fulfill his. Why?

Perhaps we are given hints to her motivations through the conversation she has with Penny. As she says to Penny in the hospital waiting room, "for the first time in a long time, [Eloise] does not know what will happen next." Some event has changed the nature of the game with respect to Eloise's involvement in the "conflict".

I speculate that Eloise's belief in strict determinism is a consequence of her ability to see into the future. Eloise has seen first hand the Course Correcting nature of time (namely, that the universe follows a set path of events, regardless of what may be alter it). It is only natural for someone with such a unique ability and perspective to prescribe to a deterministic set of beliefs. Perhaps it is precisely her highly unusual relationship with time and the universe that influenced her to send Daniel to the island to be killed by her own hands.

P.S. First post. Be gentle.

Welcome, great post!

Why then, however, would Dan say that his mom was wrong?  He knows something that she does not...

Offline rhythm

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2009, 12:36:36 AM »
Because of his variable theory maybe?

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2009, 12:50:16 AM »
Is she really killing someone that will be born it a couple of years ????


She sends Dan to the Island to die.....how long has she been doing this for?

Offline rhythm

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2009, 12:57:15 AM »
Well if this truly is a loop like a lot of us believe...infinitely?

Offline GUTZandRAGE

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2009, 12:59:14 AM »
She probably had never done it until now. Since this was Dan's present, that must mean Dan had never died at the hands of his mother. It can be said his mother does not remember her killing him, but can foresee his imminent death. I know she told Penny she could not see what the future holds, but it's not above any of the Others to simply lie to people, regardless of the situation.

Offline norville

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2009, 01:03:33 AM »
Eloise said that for the first time, she does not know what's going to happen now.  I think she means that, her whole life (from the time in 1977 that she shot an intruder into their camp) that she was going to have a son, that he was going to be a gifted physicist, that he was going to travel through time, and that she was going to shoot him in 1977 on the island.  She did all in her power, all her life, to put things into place such that this chain of events would be followed... apparently (as someone else said above) because she is convinced that what happened, happened, and cannot be changed.  So in a sense, until she sent the Oceanic 6 back to the island, she always knew what was coming.  (I don't think she could see the future; she knew only what she had surmised by Daniel's appearance in 1977.)  Now, however, since the Oceanic 6 have been sent back, she no longer has any idea what the future (her future, in 2007) holds.

Offline rhythm

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Re: Eloise's reasons
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2009, 01:04:43 AM »
She probably had never done it until now. Since this was Dan's present, that must mean Dan had never died at the hands of his mother. It can be said his mother does not remember her killing him, but can foresee his imminent death. I know she told Penny she could not see what the future holds, but it's not above any of the Others to simply lie to people, regardless of the situation.

The only reason that doesn't jive for me is that Widmore clearly remembered Locke being on the Island in the 50's.  So if that truly took place, then why wouldn't her shooting Daniel have taken place?