Author Topic: RIP Faraday  (Read 26310 times)

Offline Holland34

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #165 on: May 05, 2009, 05:31:19 PM »
Squirt, not bad posts.  This is the line of thought that I fall under.  I think that when Dan went to young Charolet and told her not to come back, he said that he wanted to prevent it.  But I think his research with the DI folk made him realize that he must still do these things.  He sees that he must go back to the island and do the things that were always done.  I think him telling Jack and the others that they can change things is one of those things that he came to do.  He knows that telling them that will causes a chain of events that will lead to the Swan being built and Des pushing the button, etc etc.

I think this makes a lot of sense and represents the explanation that I am strong leaning towards.  However (there's that word)... this goes back to the discussion that is going on in another thread.  We know (or we think we know based on the Desmond-centric episode from Season 3) that Desmond has, in fact, "changed the past".  (The example on the other thread is when Desmond somehow knew that a bartender was about to be hit from having previously experiencing it and told him to duck... and the bartender did with the guy hitting Desmond instead.)  I think this falls under the "time will tell" bucket, but I am trying to keep an open mind to both sides of this argument.

Offline BrianIsLost2

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #166 on: May 05, 2009, 06:43:26 PM »
Squirt, not bad posts.  This is the line of thought that I fall under.  I think that when Dan went to young Charolet and told her not to come back, he said that he wanted to prevent it.  But I think his research with the DI folk made him realize that he must still do these things.  He sees that he must go back to the island and do the things that were always done.  I think him telling Jack and the others that they can change things is one of those things that he came to do.  He knows that telling them that will causes a chain of events that will lead to the Swan being built and Des pushing the button, etc etc.

I think this makes a lot of sense and represents the explanation that I am strong leaning towards.  However (there's that word)... this goes back to the discussion that is going on in another thread.  We know (or we think we know based on the Desmond-centric episode from Season 3) that Desmond has, in fact, "changed the past".  (The example on the other thread is when Desmond somehow knew that a bartender was about to be hit from having previously experiencing it and told him to duck... and the bartender did with the guy hitting Desmond instead.)  I think this falls under the "time will tell" bucket, but I am trying to keep an open mind to both sides of this argument.

Right.  I did forget to mention the Desmond aspect.  I'm with you on that.  I think Desmond will be person that actualy can change things...but...maybe this is for another thread.

Offline Adriana

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #167 on: May 06, 2009, 01:32:26 AM »

I think this makes a lot of sense and represents the explanation that I am strong leaning towards.  However (there's that word)... this goes back to the discussion that is going on in another thread.  We know (or we think we know based on the Desmond-centric episode from Season 3) that Desmond has, in fact, "changed the past".  (The example on the other thread is when Desmond somehow knew that a bartender was about to be hit from having previously experiencing it and told him to duck... and the bartender did with the guy hitting Desmond instead.)  I think this falls under the "time will tell" bucket, but I am trying to keep an open mind to both sides of this argument.

Right.  I did forget to mention the Desmond aspect.  I'm with you on that.  I think Desmond will be person that actualy can change things...but...maybe this is for another thread.

Heck yes, it does!  Bring it back around to the "There are no Variables" thread ... I am loving the discussion that is going on there, which this thread is slowly starting to mirror.

To state for the record -- since our Losties started time-jumping, I've been a firm WHH'er.  Heck, since I became obsessed with Back to the Future (all three, baby) I've been a firm WHH'er in general. (Marty was, is, and always will be on stage singing "Johnny Be Good" with his hand disappearing! Lorraine never mentioned Calvin Klein in her drunken recollections to Marty because she either didn't remember him, had gotten over him, and tried to paint a rosy picture of her and George).

Whoa. Anyway ...

I've been gung-ho on Whatever Happened, Happened.  Until re-watching Desmond's ability to change the events of time.

Now I'm 90% WHH, 10% Believer-in-Desmond-the-Variable. The odds are stacked high against Desmond pulling us off our string of time into another string ... but I've managed to convince 10% of myself that it's possible IF he can manage it.

Offline Madam P

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #168 on: May 06, 2009, 03:24:58 PM »
Mrs. Alpert, you asked a few pages ago why we were having all the discussion about whether something was a paradox or not...

On the very first page of this thread, Bostonlost said "If Faraday is dead it sets up a paradox" which then set up a whole bunch of posts from people who either do or do not believe in the "time loop" or "alternate timeline" or whatever, and whether or not certain events constitute a "paradox" or not, (I think we were talking about whether Daniel dying in 1974 was a paradox when we know he was alive in 2004, thus that's why it was in this 'RIP Daniel' thread) and then by the time we got to page 6 of the thread, Novashannon pointed out the dictionary definition of "paradox" and then it just went on from there.  Basically a big discussion of our present-day reality-based definition of "paradox" VS. the Lost-verse's definition of "paradox," since Lost is clearly not reality.  So there you go -- that's what it was all about.  I think.   ;D

Very nice compelling viewpoints on all sides.  It seems to me like the presentations of Squirt, Laklost, Shadow, et. al, do sort-of fit in the area I described as "Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?"

So... well, OK.  But I'm still not convinced.  But that's OK, don't try to convince me.   ;D  I'm happy to just listen and try to keep an open mind either way.  Something about this whole story doesn't fit right for me yet, that's for sure, so I'm calling that a paradox in my own head, I guess.

I'm having a very hard time with "What happened, happened" because to me, you can't just say it only applies to the "big things" like the end result, because who defines what's a "big thing" and what isn't?  Who's to say that the tiniest little difference might not make a hugely different outcome?  (like someone said about Charlie dying -- well, he eventually died either way, so WHH.  But, look at all that might've changed because he died differently, or later -- Patchy and the two chicks down in the underwater hatch no doubt wish he'd died when his tent was struck by lightning!)  So anyway, I'm not too sure about WHH, particularly with Daniel's explanation this past week about Variables.  So... ergo... I'm not too sure that Daniel really died yet.  Or that things won't loop and change.  Or that the Comic-Con video didn't get filmed.  Or that anything that has happened, only happened once.  I'm just not sure.

And just because TPTB have told us there is only going to be one timeline, doesn't mean I'm going to believe that.  They also told us there would be no time travel, and just look.  (Unless they're going to wrap this all up like Bobby Ewing "It was all just a dream, and so nyah there's only one timeline and no time travel," and THAT would be the lamest thing ever...)

So count me in the group that Squirt describes as "Seems only a few don't feel/understand this concept."  Sorry!  I guess I'm just thick sometimes.  Just pity me and go on...  :D
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 03:42:38 PM by Madam P »

Offline Holland34

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #169 on: May 06, 2009, 03:58:44 PM »
So count me in the group that Squirt describes as "Seems only a few don't feel/understand this concept."  Sorry!  I guess I'm just thick sometimes.  Just pity me and go on...  :D

I think for those of us in the WHH group, there is still enough unaswered questions to be open to "changing futures".  For me, I know that my opinion was based on a bunch of imperical evidence where it appeared that folks trying to change the future actually created it (such as Sayid shooting young Ben and Jack then refusing to help young Ben causing Kate to take him to the Others / Hostiles.)  However, there are also some potential unanswered questions about changing the future (mostly around Desmond... although, I would argue that Desmond saving Charlie time-after-time wasn't necessarily changing the future as we never saw that future... it was just a vision in his mind... that said, Desmond's experience with trying to stop a bartender from getting hit when we had seen him get hit previously... well, you get the point, I think.)

Anyway, I don't think you're "thick"... just representing a very possible different side of the coin.   ;D

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #170 on: May 06, 2009, 04:17:47 PM »
ohhhhhhkay. And...this is the point where I once again extract myself from the conversation, lol! I agree, Madam P, I think I'll do the same: just read from the sidelines and refrain from posting. My ideas about it make sense to me, but when somebody tries to come up with a counter-argument, I'm more confused about what they're saying, and subsequently think it's MY idea that's confusing.  :-\ I'll bring us some sandwiches and beer, Madam P, and we can watch the battle rage from our picnic on the hill.  ;D

Offline BrianIsLost2

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #171 on: May 06, 2009, 04:51:00 PM »
So count me in the group that Squirt describes as "Seems only a few don't feel/understand this concept."  Sorry!  I guess I'm just thick sometimes.  Just pity me and go on...  :D

I think for those of us in the WHH group, there is still enough unaswered questions to be open to "changing futures".  For me, I know that my opinion was based on a bunch of imperical evidence where it appeared that folks trying to change the future actually created it (such as Sayid shooting young Ben and Jack then refusing to help young Ben causing Kate to take him to the Others / Hostiles.)  However, there are also some potential unanswered questions about changing the future (mostly around Desmond... although, I would argue that Desmond saving Charlie time-after-time wasn't necessarily changing the future as we never saw that future... it was just a vision in his mind... that said, Desmond's experience with trying to stop a bartender from getting hit when we had seen him get hit previously... well, you get the point, I think.)

Anyway, I don't think you're "thick"... just representing a very possible different side of the coin.   ;D

Bingo.  This is exactly how I feel.  Its very refreshing when someone posts exactly what you are thinking.  And I second the motion that the people who are not on this side of the fence are not thick.

Offline Madam P

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #172 on: May 06, 2009, 04:57:22 PM »
Whew!  Now I feel better!  Thanks guys!

Now I think I'll go have a picnic with Mrs. A and try to "work s**t out" as Jon Favreau said in The Replacements...   ;D

Offline jamesl

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #173 on: May 06, 2009, 05:04:17 PM »
So... well, OK.  But I'm still not convinced.  But that's OK, don't try to convince me.   ;D  I'm happy to just listen and try to keep an open mind either way.  Something about this whole story doesn't fit right for me yet, that's for sure, so I'm calling that a paradox in my own head, I guess.

I'm very much in the camp of "nothing can be changed, not even the little things"
I spelled out my views (in what I thought were really good posts) in the "There are no Variables" thread
and, I believe in the same thread, someone else made a really excellent analogy about DVDs, which I totally agree with

then someone had to come along and bring up the whole Desmond / bar tender thing (which I had completely forgotten about)

now I'm 100% SURE that nothing can be change, not even the little things, BUT I totally agree with "Something about this whole story doesn't fit right for me yet, that's for sure"

so I know nothing can change, but something aint right :)

somebody else asked  (maybe it was you) "what's the point of the story if nothing can change? where is the story going?"
which is a vary valid point

so, I'm eagerly anticipating these last 3 episodes of this season and see if any questions are answered and where they go with all this

Offline Madam P

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #174 on: May 06, 2009, 05:06:07 PM »
somebody else asked  (maybe it was you) "what's the point of the story if nothing can change? where is the story going?"
which is a vary valid point

so, I'm eagerly anticipating these last 3 episodes of this season and see if any questions are answered and where they go with all this

It wasn't me, but I have thought that very thing, so it may as well have been me.   :D  I'm with you -- can't wait for more!

Offline Holland34

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #175 on: May 06, 2009, 05:22:16 PM »
somebody else asked  (maybe it was you) "what's the point of the story if nothing can change? where is the story going?"
which is a vary valid point

so, I'm eagerly anticipating these last 3 episodes of this season and see if any questions are answered and where they go with all this

It wasn't me, but I have thought that very thing, so it may as well have been me.   :D  I'm with you -- can't wait for more!

Perhaps it was you in an alternative existence?   ;)

Offline Madam P

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #176 on: May 06, 2009, 11:29:29 PM »
Tee-hee!  Very amuuuuusing!   ;)

Offline toadsage

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #177 on: May 21, 2009, 04:15:30 PM »
i was just wonering, when ellie shot dan there was clearly an exit wound. richie was right in front of him, so why didnt richie get shot? ???
a lil strange dont you think?

Offline hyperform

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #178 on: May 21, 2009, 04:33:35 PM »
Jacob caught the bullet  ;)

Offline toadsage

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #179 on: May 21, 2009, 04:35:16 PM »
in his teeth like ace ventura! ;D