RIP Faraday

[SQUIRT199]

2004 he was on the friegter,

irrelevant becuase I agreew ith you totally anyway.

[SQUIRT199]

These time travel threads are always bumpin,

[TheBrightandTheDark]

cause nobody knows what the heck is going on but we cling to our theories anyway.. lol

[hyperform]

it is not a paradox for two iterations of the same person to be in the same time for the simple fact that your cells are constantly dying and replicating, there for you are NOT the same person you were say a year ago, you are more like a copy of a copy of a copy that is degrading exponentially each time.

[TheBrightandTheDark]

it is not a paradox for two iterations of the same person to be in the same time for the simple fact that your cells are constantly dying and replicating, there for you are NOT the same person you were say a year ago, you are more like a copy of a copy of a copy that is degrading exponentially each time.

yes... I was saying this somewhere else, but, um, with less good words.  That baby Miles and adult Miles can co-exist because they're different consciousnesses.

[Bostonlost]

My point is always...... if.....I just don't know if Faraday is dead maybe he is

I was told that the TPTB said there would not be an alternate future/time line correct?

So if Faraday...Jack or whoever makes sure that the hatch is not needed or is never built

Desmond never goes to the Island he never forgets to push the button the plane never crash on the Island

But there is a existing timeline where that happens the it that starts with the building of the hatch in 1977
           

       A.) What we know Hatch built plane crashes
IN 1977
      B.) Hatch is never built plane doesn't crashes on Island (maybe it crashes someplace else and they all die? or land in LA and live)

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct? That would be a circle correct?

weather that is a paradox or lostadox or a sledgeadox it would still be a circle....the events would just repeat

So my theory would be that Ellie might have a understanding of this and a clue might have been when she talks to Des when he is buying a ring for Penny.....

[Dharma Bum]

Woah, getting my head around this thread alone is taking something!

I can see where the circle or loop or repeating theories come from... I mean, to me at least there were a few subtle references from Daniel and Eloise that they had in fact 'done it before' so to speak. One that comes to mind is when he's talking to young Charlotte and says something like "I've tried to avoid telling you this, I didn't think I could change things" .. I'm paraphrasing here.

Obviously this isn't an airtight theory, but not many are in Lostworld I guess! 

[Bostonlost]

Then there is this:

[Whirring, hammering, drilling]

MILES: Are we... waiting for something?

[Vehicle approaching]

FARADAY: Right on time.

[Turns off engine] .....Chang arrives



That to me is someone who knew what was happening and reminiscent of Des and Charlie out side Widmore office or MS. HAWKING and Desmond when he was buying the ring

[Dharma Bum]

Then there is this:

[Whirring, hammering, drilling]

MILES: Are we... waiting for something?

[Vehicle approaching]

FARADAY: Right on time.

[Turns off engine] .....Chang arrives



That to me is someone who knew what was happening and reminiscent of Des and Charlie out side Widmore office or MS. HAWKING and Desmond when he was buying the ring

Yeah, that was another one I noticed too!

[SQUIRT199]

My point is always...... if.....I just don't know if Faraday is dead maybe he is

I was told that the TPTB said there would not be an alternate future/time line correct?

So if Faraday...Jack or whoever makes sure that the hatch is not needed or is never built

Desmond never goes to the Island he never forgets to push the button the plane never crash on the Island

But there is a existing timeline where that happens the it that starts with the building of the hatch in 1977
           

       A.) What we know Hatch built plane crashes
IN 1977
      B.) Hatch is never built plane doesn't crashes on Island (maybe it crashes someplace else and they all die? or land in LA and live)

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct? That would be a circle correct?

weather that is a paradox or lostadox or a sledgeadox it would still be a circle....the events would just repeat

So my theory would be that Ellie might have a understanding of this and a clue might have been when she talks to Des when he is buying a ring for Penny.....

I believe some of my difficulty is your partial english,  you are spanish I am thinking?

It is not a circle,

not a loop,

not repeating,

the events we are witnessing only happened once, they only happend in 1977, I am of the opinion that as a result of killing Daniel Eloise is informed by soemone of what will take place over the next 30 years up til 2007. that is how she knows so much of what will happen although I/we do not why she is so convinced that it has to happen that way for whatever reason she is convinced that Daniel must get shot by her in her past.

What we are seeing is the writers showing us what happened in 1977 as they showed us in season one what happend to the survivors of flight 815.

When they showed us Desmond going into the hospital that is the true and only present  circa  2008, that (I beleive)  is the only point at which any events can change.  the events of the past will not keep happening we are just seeing what happened, daniel was only killed once, sayid only shot ben once,

Another problem I have is that I find myself agreeing with some of your points yet we seem to be on two differnt pages all the time.

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct

Not quite as above,  more like.......

  

In the order they happened not the order we have been shown,

- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time *(this always happened)
- 2004 daniel dies  1977
- hatch is built  1980?
- daniel is born and eloise leaves the island 70's or 80's?
- daniel studies at oxford
- desmond crashes on the island
- 815 crashes
- daniel goes to the island for the first time
- ocenaic 6 get off island
- eloise is old
- desmond gets shot
- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time
- mrs hawking meets penny in the hospital
- widmore confronts eloise outside the hospital and gets slapped,  (I believe this is as far into the future the show has gone.

No Loop  no repeats.

[james_sawyer]

very very upset faraday is gone ..really liked him a lott 

[Dharma Bum]

I think the very fact that there are no rules or boundaries, because time travel isn't possible, make saying things can or can't happen a certain way quite redundant.

The fact that it seems to be turning out that everyone is related to one another is quite bizarre also. In this episode you could tell there was going to be some sort of Darth Vader type "I am your father" moment for Daniel. It is formulaic at the same time as not being formulaic.. Argh! Maybe that's a paradox too! 

[Holland34]

My point is always...... if.....I just don't know if Faraday is dead maybe he is

I was told that the TPTB said there would not be an alternate future/time line correct?

So if Faraday...Jack or whoever makes sure that the hatch is not needed or is never built

Desmond never goes to the Island he never forgets to push the button the plane never crash on the Island

But there is a existing timeline where that happens the it that starts with the building of the hatch in 1977
           

       A.) What we know Hatch built plane crashes
IN 1977
      B.) Hatch is never built plane doesn't crashes on Island (maybe it crashes someplace else and they all die? or land in LA and live)

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct? That would be a circle correct?

weather that is a paradox or lostadox or a sledgeadox it would still be a circle....the events would just repeat

So my theory would be that Ellie might have a understanding of this and a clue might have been when she talks to Des when he is buying a ring for Penny.....

I believe some of my difficulty is your partial english,  you are spanish I am thinking?

It is not a circle,

not a loop,

not repeating,

the events we are witnessing only happened once, they only happend in 1977, I am of the opinion that as a result of killing Daniel Eloise is informed by soemone of what will take place over the next 30 years up til 2007. that is how she knows so much of what will happen although I/we do not why she is so convinced that it has to happen that way for whatever reason she is convinced that Daniel must get shot by her in her past.

What we are seeing is the writers showing us what happened in 1977 as they showed us in season one what happend to the survivors of flight 815.

When they showed us Desmond going into the hospital that is the true and only present  circa  2008, that (I beleive)  is the only point at which any events can change.  the events of the past will not keep happening we are just seeing what happened, daniel was only killed once, sayid only shot ben once,

Another problem I have is that I find myself agreeing with some of your points yet we seem to be on two differnt pages all the time.

My point is if that Hatch is built and they fail, then that plane crashes correct? Then Ellie leaves Island and has Dan correct? and he goes through life as a scientist goes to the Island and then dies correct

Not quite as above,  more like.......

  

In the order they happened not the order we have been shown,

- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time *(this always happened)
- 2004 daniel dies  1977
- hatch is built  1980?
- daniel is born and eloise leaves the island 70's or 80's?
- daniel studies at oxford
- desmond crashes on the island
- 815 crashes
- daniel goes to the island for the first time
- ocenaic 6 get off island
- eloise is old
- desmond gets shot
- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time
- mrs hawking meets penny in the hospital
- widmore confronts eloise outside the hospital and gets slapped,  (I believe this is as far into the future the show has gone.

No Loop  no repeats.

I think part of the issue is perspective.  As viewers, we are looking at this as if it is an ant farm, so to speak.  We are seeing the interactions and the traveling and we think of the fact that Daniel is born, goes into the world and does his thing, goes back in time, and gets killed... but there is little Daniel who has yet to grow up and go through all that.  From that perspective, it appears to be circular.

However, if you think about this from any one person's perspective, it is all linear.  The only thing that Daniel knows is his life as he goes on... at age 10, he knows everything that has happened to him previously, but not the experiences that have yet to occur... same at age 20.  Even if he traveled in the future and saw how things turned out, he only "knows" the experiences that he has had.  It is from this perspective that there is no loop.

[Bostonlost]

I believe some of my difficulty is your partial English,  you are Spanish I am thinking?

Not quite sure what that means?

It is kind of a wise assy thing to say?  I am off to work but when I get back I will dumb things down for you so that you will better understand.......


I know that I have never been a key board tough guy with you

[Holland34]

I think the very fact that there are no rules or boundaries, because time travel isn't possible, make saying things can or can't happen a certain way quite redundant.

The fact that it seems to be turning out that everyone is related to one another is quite bizarre also. In this episode you could tell there was going to be some sort of Darth Vader type "I am your father" moment for Daniel. It is formulaic at the same time as not being formulaic.. Argh! Maybe that's a paradox too! 

I've seen this perspective in a few different threads from a few different folks.  I would like to differentiate between what is possible and what is currently known.  With today's science / knowledge, we don't know how to "time travel" (the very definition of the phrase is actually a point of debate), but that doesn't mean it is impossible... it just means we don't know how to do it.  There are real-life scientific theories that say with a large amount of imperical evidence that "time travel" is possible... and there's a host of impacts because of it.  Best I can tell, the writers do a decent job of researching the real-life scientific data and trying to apply it as if it were possible today.  They're very likely wrong on a ton of stuff, but I do think they are trying to base the information (even the debates on what is and isn't possible) on real research.