Author Topic: RIP Faraday  (Read 25244 times)

Offline shadow

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2009, 02:40:58 PM »
born -> became a scientist -> went to the island -> time skipped with Locke and Sawyer -> went to Ann Arbor -> went to the island in 1977 -> was shot by mother.

I posted this image in another thread. Time is two dimensional, but the Losties perceive it as a single dimension (years across the top).


Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2009, 02:43:47 PM »
It IS a paradox!  Just existing at two different ages in the same time is a paradox.

It is only a paradox if you apply reality the the "Lostverse".

In reality (as far as we know), time travel does not exist. Therefore a person existing at two different ages at the same point in time is a paradox.

However, in the Lostverse, time travel DOES exist in some fashion. As such, a person that exists at two different ages at the same point in time is NOT a contradiction in itself.



let's assume that time travel is possible in reality,  how then would it be a paradox?
What is the contradiction if I go back in time and see/meet myself?  (not kill my younger self because I think that is a paradox,)

It could only be a paradox if you follow (Ok I was wrong its not einstien it is the pauli exclusion principle that says two object cannot occupy the same space and time.)

Offline Novashannon

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2009, 02:48:05 PM »
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 

Offline laklost

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2009, 02:49:38 PM »
The word that keeps tripping us up is the word BACK.  They have not gone BACK to 1977.  They just ARE in 1977.  It's the next event in their own sequence.

Offline this is some crazy stuff

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2009, 02:50:59 PM »
Well here is a little picture that I created in the last few minutes.  I now see the one above mine which makes perfect sense and is the same point that I am trying to get across, and is a little bit better then mine.  But here goes anyways.

Basically the blue boxes on both the lines occurred at the same time.  The line the 815er's taking from 2004 to 1977 notice is not going back in time. As in they are still living there present which just happens to be other people's (who live in 2004) past.


Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2009, 02:55:54 PM »
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 

Ok but since time travel is not possible the writers can do whatever they like,

Have you been arguing this point with the perception that time travel is possible?

I dont think if time travel were possible there qwoudl be any paradox, how does my being beside my self create any paradox? I have read the definition of paradox and it applies mostly to language not space time :An apparently sound argument leading to a contradiction

the problem is Most paradoxes stem from some kind of self-reference.

For some people in 1642 traveling around the would was a paradox because the earth was flat.  subsequently that was proven wrong.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 02:57:29 PM by SQUIRT199 »

Offline laklost

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2009, 02:56:45 PM »
Well here is a little picture that I created in the last few minutes.  I now see the one above mine which makes perfect sense and is the same point that I am trying to get across, and is a little bit better then mine.  But here goes anyways.

Basically the blue boxes on both the lines occurred at the same time.  The line the 815er's taking from 2004 to 1977 notice is not going back in time. As in they are still living there present which just happens to be other people's (who live in 2004) past.



High five from Lak for that TISCS!!

Offline shadow

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2009, 03:10:37 PM »
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 

A. Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is paradox.
B. It is a paradox because time is linear.
C. Since time is linear, time travel is not possible.

Since "C" is false (Time Travel is possible in the Lostverse), B is false. Since B is false, A must be false, too.

Therefore, being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is NOT a paradox.

QED.

Offline Madam P

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #98 on: April 30, 2009, 03:16:52 PM »
Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:  paradox (fr. neut. of paradoxos contrary to expectation, fr. para- + dokein to think)  1. a tenet contrary to received opinion.  2A.  a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true.  B.  a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true.  C. an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises.   3.  something (as a person, condition, or act) with seemingly contradictory qualities or phases.  

I agree with Novashannon -- I don't see how Daniel dying in 1977 and then being with the Freighter Folk in 2004 could not fit this definition of "paradox."  (especially 2A.)

Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?

Or... if you say this situation is NOT a paradox, then what would your definition of "paradox" be?  (I'm not being snarky -- I really want to know!)  

Offline shadow

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #99 on: April 30, 2009, 03:41:05 PM »
Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?

No, the rules and definitions are not "non-existent", they just vary slightly according to the way the writers have laid out the consistent universe Lost is taking place in.

Think of it this way:

You have no problem understanding that "Kate Austin" is played by Evangaline Lilly and that "Kate" only exists in the universe of a TV show. By the same token, there are things that exist in the TV show that do not exist elsewhere. Time travel, for example. Since time travel exists in "Lost", you cannot use the basic example of a Lostie time travelling as an example of a paradox.

Or... if you say this situation is NOT a paradox, then what would your definition of "paradox" be?  (I'm not being snarky -- I really want to know!) 

If Daniel turned around and shot and killed Eloise.

It is a fact that Eloise exists at an aged state after the last scene of "The Variable". Thus, if Daniel would have killed her, something we "know" couldn't have happened, it would be a paradox.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 03:58:36 PM by shadow »

Offline this is some crazy stuff

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #100 on: April 30, 2009, 03:53:36 PM »
Basically I see a paradox like this. 

 Miles being in the same time line as baby miles is not a paradox because nothing is contradicting anything at this time. 

If Miles kills his baby self then that would be a paradox because in order for old Miles to be there baby Miles had to grow old so that he could time travel to 1974

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #101 on: April 30, 2009, 03:54:09 PM »
Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:  paradox (fr. neut. of paradoxos contrary to expectation, fr. para- + dokein to think)  1. a tenet contrary to received opinion.  2A.  a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true.  B.  a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true.  C. an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises.   3.  something (as a person, condition, or act) with seemingly contradictory qualities or phases.  

I agree with Novashannon -- I don't see how Daniel dying in 1977 and then being with the Freighter Folk in 2004 could not fit this definition of "paradox."  (especially 2A.)

This is not a paradox because he was on the frieghter in 2004, and then went back to 1977 FROM 2004. When he went back to 1977 it is his present.  Old daniel died in 1977 but the Daniel we saw playing the piano, will eventually go on the frieghter and get to the island and then he will die. If as some have speculated Daniel was born on the island then at the time of his death in 1977 there is two daniels and the young daniel will eventually be prodded by his mother to learn science, hook up with widmore and be enlisted for the freighter

Lets say 1970 something Dan is born,  grows up and goes to the island and back in time to 1974.  they are just showing us what happened in 1977


Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?

Or... if you say this situation is NOT a paradox, then what would your definition of "paradox" be?  (I'm not being snarky -- I really want to know!)  

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #102 on: April 30, 2009, 03:58:30 PM »
2A.  a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true

who's common sense are you referring to when developing your ideas about time travel?

Isnt that sentence a bit of an oxymoron, how can you have common sense in regards to somehting that isnt possible such as time travel,

Common sense would say that if you stand in a breathing dragons fire you will get burned,  since we know Dragons are make believe what does common sense have to do with it?

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2009, 03:59:44 PM »
And lets assume that time travel is possible and common sense rules,

what is the logic that makes daniel dying in 1977 a paradox

Or if you prefer what is the contradiction?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 04:17:53 PM by SQUIRT199 »

Offline Holland34

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #104 on: April 30, 2009, 04:01:59 PM »
Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:  paradox (fr. neut. of paradoxos contrary to expectation, fr. para- + dokein to think)  1. a tenet contrary to received opinion.  2A.  a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true.  B.  a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true.  C. an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises.   3.  something (as a person, condition, or act) with seemingly contradictory qualities or phases.  

I agree with Novashannon -- I don't see how Daniel dying in 1977 and then being with the Freighter Folk in 2004 could not fit this definition of "paradox."  (especially 2A.)

This is not a paradox because he was on the frieghter in 2004, and then went back to 1977 FROM 2004. When he went back to 1977 it is his present.  Old daniel died in 1977 but the Daniel we saw playing the piano, will eventually go on the frieghter and get to the island and then he will die. If as some have speculated Daniel was born on the island then at the time of his death in 1977 there is two daniels and the young daniel will eventually be prodded by his mother to learn science, hook up with widmore and be enlisted for the freighter

Lets say 1970 something Dan is born,  grows up and goes to the island and back in time to 1974.  they are just showing us what happened in 1977


Of course, now if you're going to say "Well, all rules and definitions are non-existant because this is a fantasy TV show and there is really no such thing as time-travel so therefore there is no such thing as a paradox..." well, then, maybe OK.  Is that what you guys are saying?

Or... if you say this situation is NOT a paradox, then what would your definition of "paradox" be?  (I'm not being snarky -- I really want to know!)  

Let me try it this way.  When Daniel was on the freighter in 2007 (or 2008... whichever it was), let's say he was exactly 35 years old.  When he was in 1977, he was 38 years old (having lived three years since traveling back to 1974).  So, when he died in 1977, it doesn't impact his 2007 self because that was his past.