Author Topic: RIP Faraday  (Read 26310 times)

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #150 on: May 01, 2009, 11:45:08 AM »
SQUIRT199

I actually enjoy debating this with you and if I got sensitive I apologize....


To reiterate I never said that this will happen....


My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....then she WILL rear him to be a scientist, (as they showed us in the variable) then 815 WILLcrash, (as they showed us in the series premiere) then Daniel/miles/Naomi/Charlotte WILL come to the island, (as they showed us at the end of season 3) then the 815'ers WILL leave the island and arrive in 2004, then they WILL board flight 316 and end up in 77,  it is at this point your confusion arise,

You remember the scene where hawking slapped widmore in the most recent episode?  that is Present day,  Daniel in 77 is in his present timeline which happens to be 1977 but the whatever happened happened applies to everything we have seen up until Widmore gets slapped,   there is no repetition just what happened.

etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...I never said this would happen? How the hell do I know what will happen? We do know WHAT WILL HAPPEN because they have already shown us in the first three season prior to time travel,  those events happen in 2004 what we are seeing now is what happened in 1977  I am trying to use logic. As am I   because there is a sense of logic with time travel as crazy as that sounds. 

Look Dan says you can't change the past in a way he is right and wrong

If a person is always in their present, no matter what time he or she is in, then this person can change the future. In 1977 they will change the events of 2004 No they wont because that is what always happened.  no matter what they do in 1977 when we see the events of season one and two those choices made in 1977 have already been done, for instance even when they boarded the plane in 2004, History knew that they had already been in 1977, our losties however did not know this, because they had not experienced it yet.  For instance if they had done something so profound as to change the world like becoming president of the US in 1980 or whatever, then if they looked in a history book from 1980 they would ses Hugo's picture as president for instance.  whatever choices they make as we are shown, (sawyer knocking out Phil, the shootout at the Dhrma corral,  already happened when they boarded that plane in 2004 and if you look at my post last night I explain much the same thing as I have here, pls take a look and critique it if it doesn't make sense.....They are going into the past to change events in the future, which may or may not be their past, because they are always in the present.


I believe in that..... I believe that to be possible

But what if events do change then that is a alternate time line It cant change because as documented in season 1 -3 the hatch is built, Desmond comes to the island, radsinsky shoots himself, they all get off and come back,

I may be alone on this but the only point in time that any events can change is at the point we see Mrs. Hawking slap widmore or the the other 316ers on the island, frank sun etc...   I believe that when we see Episodes with Ben and Locke that is present day or future from 1977, and when we see widmore and hawking in the hospital that is also present day, so events can only changed by choices made after that time, everything we have been SHOWN up until those points has already happened (whatever happened happened,  however now Daniel ahs added he was wrong, I don't know what to think anymore but am sticking with this because that is the only present day that has been presented on the show.   to finish I would say that the most future point on island we have been shown is Ilaana knocking out lapidus and widmore getting slapped by Hawking,

Who's with me?


If the hatch is not needed and the electromagnetic energy is contained or whatever. Then flight 815 never crashes on the Island (the shows theory) the it either lands in LA or maybe crashes someplace else and they all die (wouldn't that be a twist). Either way that would be a new history a alternate time line
My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...

The words that stand out for me here are "if" and "relive".

"If"
We know the hatch gets built. There is no alternate universe. What happened, happened. We've seen the hatch, therefore it gets built. No "if" about it.

Lost's storytelling jumped around in time even before the characters started time traveling. If we saw something in a flashback or a flash forward, we knew that event was set in stone. Characters time traveling does not change that.

In The Variable, Daniel gets the idea that you can change the past - but I really think he's wrong.

Relive
Daniel (like everyone else) lives his life exactly once.
He is born, educated, works, goes to the island, jumps back in time, and is finally killed by the young woman who will become his mother. This happens exactly once, and nothing can change the way it pans out.

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #151 on: May 01, 2009, 11:45:50 AM »
My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...

The words that stand out for me here are "if" and "relive".

"If"
We know the hatch gets built. There is no alternate universe. What happened, happened. We've seen the hatch, therefore it gets built. No "if" about it.

Lost's storytelling jumped around in time even before the characters started time traveling. If we saw something in a flashback or a flash forward, we knew that event was set in stone. Characters time traveling does not change that.

In The Variable, Daniel gets the idea that you can change the past - but I really think he's wrong.

Relive
Daniel (like everyone else) lives his life exactly once.
He is born, educated, works, goes to the island, jumps back in time, and is finally killed by the young woman who will become his mother. This happens exactly once, and nothing can change the way it pans out.
I agree, thanks for the back up

Offline rhythm

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #152 on: May 01, 2009, 01:51:55 PM »
SQUIRT199

I actually enjoy debating this with you and if I got sensitive I apologize....


To reiterate I never said that this will happen....


My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...I never said this would happen? How the hell do I know what will happen? I am trying to use logic.     Because there is a sense of logic with time travel as crazy as that sounds.

Look Dan says you can't change the past in a way he is right and wrong

If a person is always in their present, no matter what time he or she is in, then this person can change the future. In 1977 they will change the events of 2004....They are going into the past to change events in the future, which may or may not be their past, because they are always in the present.


I believe in that..... I believe that to be possible

But what if events do change then that is a alternate time line

If the hatch is not needed and the electromagnetic energy is contained or whatever. Then flight 815 never crashes on the Island (the shows theory) the it either lands in LA or maybe crashes someplace else and they all die (wouldn't that be a twist). Either way that would be a new history a alternate time line
And THEN it would be a paradox.  But we don't know if things will change yet.  And I believe that is what was causing most of us (well at least me) to scratch our heads when you were claiming "paradox".  Because it seemed as if you were saying that the timeline was already contradicting itself.

Offline ericd543

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #153 on: May 01, 2009, 10:04:50 PM »
And this is were I think the LOST version of time travel (single timeline, no parallel universes) is weak. If there is only one way the past happened, and if you travel to the past, you are limited in what you can do. You do not have free will. Sayid was not free to kill Ben with something more effective, like dynamite. (tho maybe smokie could reassemble) Our Losties are not free to return to the mainland and meet with the younger version of themselves, because they didn't, etc. Everything they did not do, they can not do. There. That's the flipside to "what happened, happened" and the downside to living a life of destiny instead of one with free will. I believe we all have free will in real life, but the time travellers in LOST do not.

I like the Lost characters who challenge the notion of "what happened, happened" as it shows the spirit of "Don't tell me what I can't do!". But they are doomed to failure since TPTB say there is only a single timeline.  :(

I disagree with your interpretation, for the reason I do believe they have free will in 1977, it is their present as well as the other people around them, (Dharma, hostiles etc...) What I think the writers have been showing us and what is meant by whatever happened happened is these are the choices they made in 1977. They are not limited to what they can and cannot do, they can do whatever they want, like lie to the DI and say you crashed, become members of said initiative and choose to listen to Juliet who says "you should go and help kate with ben". Those are all choices Sawyer made, what he chose to do. and what he chooses to do has a direct impact on his surroundings, the thing is that the in 2004 when they boarded oceanic 815 in Australia, they had already been back to 1977 and there acts in 1977 shaped the events that determined how the world turned out, just as you and I do every day, if we weren't alive anymore, say we both died yesterday, That would directly affect what happens in the world in some shape or another. I realize I'm no Barack Obama, but it would definitely have an impact on my immediate family at least,  you can say without a doubt the world would have been different had we still been alive, but we are not alive, that is what happened.

In that same sense what ever the losties do in 1977 has already happened when they boarded that plane in Australia, we are just being shown what they did, the "choices" they made.  I suppose that the 77'ers will reunite with the other 315'ers in present time eventually and then events can be altered, at least that is what I felt was a pretty sound theory until Daniel brings up this "We Can" attitude, so who knows.

Could the time travelling Losties make a choice that would prevent flight 815 from crashing on the island? Can they kill someone like young Miles or young Ben who they know lives to be older? Could Jack have killed Radzinski in the motorpool shootout even though we've been told he died in the hatch? Can they tell the truth to the DI? Can they prevent the purge from happening? Can they prevent the Swan Station from being built? Can they leave the island and meet their younger selves even if they don't already have a memory of that happening? I think the answer to all of the above is "no". So it seems to me there are a lot of things they can not do.

My argument is based on the premise "what happened, happened" and that LOST will not introduce alternative timelines to the story we are being told. I do not see how free will and time travel can mix without alternative timelines. In the Lostverse we have time travel, we do not have alternative timelines, so the time travelling characters do not have free will, IMHO.

While writing this I thought, "maybe they have limited free will" and they can do anything short of preventing themselves from coming back to the island, or that they can "try" to do things but the outcome cannot be changed. Well, that doesn't sound like free will to me.

I thought I had an argument for why everything had to be predetermined, even the minutia of their day, but I lost it. Stupid brain cells!

I think they will try to prevent Flight 815 from crashing, via Daniel's suggestion of the nuclear option, but they will fail.

Offline shadow

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #154 on: May 03, 2009, 12:33:22 PM »
While writing this I thought, "maybe they have limited free will" and they can do anything short of preventing themselves from coming back to the island, or that they can "try" to do things but the outcome cannot be changed. Well, that doesn't sound like free will to me.

Jack was free to help or not help young Ben.
Sayid was free to shoot or not shoot young Ben.

Both of them had free will to do what they wanted. Their bad assumption was that their choices would change the outcome when, in fact, they enabled it.

As was said in "The Matrix": "There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."

It's a lot like professional wrestling. The outcomes of the matches are generally predetermined in order to move a plotline forward, but the wrestlers are allowed to freestyle their moves throughout the match.

I think they will try to prevent Flight 815 from crashing, via Daniel's suggestion of the nuclear option, but they will fail.

Or they will succeed in executing Daniel's plan which will cause 815 to crash. That's the whole point of "Whatever happened, happened." I am very curious to see if the writers stick with WHH or not.

Offline BrianIsLost2

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #155 on: May 04, 2009, 02:40:56 PM »
While writing this I thought, "maybe they have limited free will" and they can do anything short of preventing themselves from coming back to the island, or that they can "try" to do things but the outcome cannot be changed. Well, that doesn't sound like free will to me.

Jack was free to help or not help young Ben.
Sayid was free to shoot or not shoot young Ben.

Both of them had free will to do what they wanted. Their bad assumption was that their choices would change the outcome when, in fact, they enabled it.

As was said in "The Matrix": "There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."

It's a lot like professional wrestling. The outcomes of the matches are generally predetermined in order to move a plotline forward, but the wrestlers are allowed to freestyle their moves throughout the match.

I think they will try to prevent Flight 815 from crashing, via Daniel's suggestion of the nuclear option, but they will fail.

Or they will succeed in executing Daniel's plan which will cause 815 to crash. That's the whole point of "Whatever happened, happened." I am very curious to see if the writers stick with WHH or not.

I'm glad you mentioned the Matrix in regards to this conversation.  I was just thinking that maybe Daniel knew that by coming back to the island and telling the losties that they can change the future is exactly what they needed to hear in order for them to walk the path that was always walked.  Almost like Neo.  We was told by the Oracle that he was NOT the One.  But that is exactly what he needed to hear in order to become the One.  Daniel may be playing the role of the Oracle in this case.  He is serving the position of his mother in making sure that whatever happened happens.  He could be telling Jack that he doesn't belong there and he can change things, because that starts a chain of events where he does in fact not change anything.

Offline this is some crazy stuff

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #156 on: May 04, 2009, 04:34:24 PM »
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.

Offline BrianIsLost2

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #157 on: May 04, 2009, 04:46:36 PM »
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.

That actualy makes perfect sense.  This is exacly what I have spent time posting about in other threads.  I'm with you on this.

Offline DaveDargo

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #158 on: May 04, 2009, 05:04:49 PM »
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.

So what they think they are doing/will do to try and change what happens is actually what they were supposed to do all along.

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #159 on: May 04, 2009, 05:05:29 PM »
And this is were I think the LOST version of time travel (single timeline, no parallel universes) is weak. If there is only one way the past happened, and if you travel to the past, you are limited in what you can do. You do not have free will. Sayid was not free to kill Ben with something more effective, like dynamite. (tho maybe smokie could reassemble) Our Losties are not free to return to the mainland and meet with the younger version of themselves, because they didn't, etc. Everything they did not do, they can not do. There. That's the flipside to "what happened, happened" and the downside to living a life of destiny instead of one with free will. I believe we all have free will in real life, but the time travellers in LOST do not.

I like the Lost characters who challenge the notion of "what happened, happened" as it shows the spirit of "Don't tell me what I can't do!". But they are doomed to failure since TPTB say there is only a single timeline.  :(

I disagree with your interpretation, for the reason I do believe they have free will in 1977, it is their present as well as the other people around them, (Dharma, hostiles etc...) What I think the writers have been showing us and what is meant by whatever happened happened is these are the choices they made in 1977. They are not limited to what they can and cannot do, they can do whatever they want, like lie to the DI and say you crashed, become members of said initiative and choose to listen to Juliet who says "you should go and help kate with ben". Those are all choices Sawyer made, what he chose to do. and what he chooses to do has a direct impact on his surroundings, the thing is that the in 2004 when they boarded oceanic 815 in Australia, they had already been back to 1977 and there acts in 1977 shaped the events that determined how the world turned out, just as you and I do every day, if we weren't alive anymore, say we both died yesterday, That would directly affect what happens in the world in some shape or another. I realize I'm no Barack Obama, but it would definitely have an impact on my immediate family at least,  you can say without a doubt the world would have been different had we still been alive, but we are not alive, that is what happened.

In that same sense what ever the losties do in 1977 has already happened when they boarded that plane in Australia, we are just being shown what they did, the "choices" they made.  I suppose that the 77'ers will reunite with the other 315'ers in present time eventually and then events can be altered, at least that is what I felt was a pretty sound theory until Daniel brings up this "We Can" attitude, so who knows.

Could the time travelling Losties make a choice that would prevent flight 815 from crashing on the island? Can they kill someone like young Miles or young Ben who they know lives to be older? Could Jack have killed Radzinski in the motorpool shootout even though we've been told he died in the hatch? Can they tell the truth to the DI? Can they prevent the purge from happening? Can they prevent the Swan Station from being built? Can they leave the island and meet their younger selves even if they don't already have a memory of that happening? I think the answer to all of the above is "no". So it seems to me there are a lot of things they can not do.

My argument is based on the premise "what happened, happened" and that LOST will not introduce alternative timelines to the story we are being told. I do not see how free will and time travel can mix without alternative timelines. In the Lostverse we have time travel, we do not have alternative timelines, so the time travelling characters do not have free will, IMHO.

While writing this I thought, "maybe they have limited free will" and they can do anything short of preventing themselves from coming back to the island, or that they can "try" to do things but the outcome cannot be changed. Well, that doesn't sound like free will to me.

I thought I had an argument for why everything had to be predetermined, even the minutia of their day, but I lost it. Stupid brain cells!

I think they will try to prevent Flight 815 from crashing, via Daniel's suggestion of the nuclear option, but they will fail.

Could the time travelling Losties make a choice that would prevent flight 815 from crashing on the island?    Perhaps they could have but they did not as we saw it crash in the pilot.

Can they kill someone like young Miles or young Ben who they know lives to be older? Yes they could have but they didnt, Sayid tried but failed, since we know Ben is alive in 2004

Could Jack have killed Radzinski in the motorpool shootout even though we've been told he died in the hatch?  he could have but he didnt since we know he died IN the swan (I dont catre how he died just satified that the bastard will)

Can they tell the truth to the DI?  Sayid tried, they thought he was looopy on bus fumes.

Can they prevent the purge from happening? they may try but that pit full of bodies was pretty convincing to me that they wont.

Can they prevent the Swan Station from being built?  they may try but will not suceed since we saw it was built in 2004

Can they leave the island and meet their younger selves even if they don't already have a memory of that happening?  This one just spins my head, they could go back in time and meet themselves but they could not (in lost time travel logic) do so and not remember it happening outside of contracting amnesia.

I think the answer to all of the above is "no". So it seems to me there are a lot of things they can not do. You are saying flat out no they cannot, I am sayig no they did not.  They could have but whatever chioces we see them make are the choices they already made.

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #160 on: May 04, 2009, 05:06:15 PM »
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.

So what they think they are doing/will do to try and change what happens is actually what they were supposed to do all along.
forget supposed to and not supposed to, whatever they do is just what they did.

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #161 on: May 04, 2009, 05:07:28 PM »
I think they do have free will, because they are in there present.  But their free will is what happened.  I dont really know if that makes sense to anyone. 

Basically I am saying whatever they do as there free will is what Eloise and Charles and all them remember happening in their past.  Because it is what happened in their past.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Offline tonysee200x

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #162 on: May 04, 2009, 05:50:17 PM »
I don't know if the show has any time loops or circles...but if you want an example of what a time loop/circle would look like all you need to do is read this thread from the beginning.  -- good stuff everyone,, bravo

(for the record, record my vote - everything happens once and it has happened the way we have seen it)

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #163 on: May 04, 2009, 05:56:48 PM »
I don't know if the show has any time loops or circles...but if you want an example of what a time loop/circle would look like all you need to do is read this thread from the beginning.  -- good stuff everyone,, bravo

(for the record, record my vote - everything happens once and it has happened the way we have seen it)

Nice one,

Seems only a few don't feel/understand this concept.

Offline BrianIsLost2

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #164 on: May 05, 2009, 04:57:34 PM »
Squirt, not bad posts.  This is the line of thought that I fall under.  I think that when Dan went to young Charolet and told her not to come back, he said that he wanted to prevent it.  But I think his research with the DI folk made him realize that he must still do these things.  He sees that he must go back to the island and do the things that were always done.  I think him telling Jack and the others that they can change things is one of those things that he came to do.  He knows that telling them that will causes a chain of events that will lead to the Swan being built and Des pushing the button, etc etc.