Author Topic: RIP Faraday  (Read 25234 times)

Offline GUTZandRAGE

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #135 on: April 30, 2009, 07:02:08 PM »
But I can't argue something I don't understand

Never stopped me...

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #136 on: April 30, 2009, 07:04:18 PM »
But I can't argue something I don't understand

Never stopped me...
Really? I had no idea... you always seem to know what you're talking about. Dang eloquence!!

Offline GUTZandRAGE

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #137 on: April 30, 2009, 07:14:44 PM »
And that's the trick, innit?

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #138 on: April 30, 2009, 07:44:29 PM »
well, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance..."  ;)

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #139 on: April 30, 2009, 08:11:26 PM »
well, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance..."  ;)

I love that line,

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #140 on: April 30, 2009, 08:13:20 PM »
well, "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance..."  ;)

I love that line,
My mom taught me that saying when I was 12. Twelve!! Yeah, she's a good mom.  ;D

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #141 on: April 30, 2009, 11:06:22 PM »
In the order they happened not the order we have been shown,

- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time *(this always happened) O6 ARRIVAL at the island
- 2004 Daniel dies  1977
- hatch is built  1980?
- Daniel is born and Eloise leaves the island 70's or 80's?
- Daniel studies at oxford
- Desmond crashes on the island
- 815 crashes
- Daniel goes to the island for the first time
- oceanic 6 get off island
- Eloise is old
- Desmond gets shot
- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time O6 DEPARTURE for the island
- Mrs hawking meets penny in the hospital
- widmore confronts Eloise outside the hospital and gets slapped,  (I believe this is as far into the future the show has gone.

No Loop No repeats.

I thought I could help clarify your point by distinguishing between the departing and arrival events for Jack, Kate & Hugo. The O6 got split up and Locke, Ben and Sun are still in 2007. I agree with what you say, and what TPTB have said about having only one timeline.

I think some of this "done this before, stuck in a loop" business comes from characters with knowledge of the future. Knowledge of the future, like Charlotte's memory of Dan speaking to her as a child, negates free will. Dan was driven in some way and had to have that conversation with her. And that's what bothers me about the Lostverse version of a single time line.

Personally, if I was experiencing 1977 for a second time I would contact my 16 year old self to tell the younger me a few things. I don't see a paradox with young and old versions of yourself being in the same room at the same time, BUT ONLY IF the older version already has a memory of the meeting. "Oh yeah, I WAS that weird guy who claimed to be future me."

And this is were I think the LOST version of time travel (single timeline, no parallel universes) is weak. If there is only one way the past happened, and if you travel to the past, you are limited in what you can do. You do not have free will. Sayid was not free to kill Ben with something more effective, like dynamite. (tho maybe smokie could reassemble) Our Losties are not free to return to the mainland and meet with the younger version of themselves, because they didn't, etc. Everything they did not do, they can not do. There. That's the flipside to "what happened, happened" and the downside to living a life of destiny instead of one with free will. I believe we all have free will in real life, but the time travellers in LOST do not.

I like the Lost characters who challenge the notion of "what happened, happened" as it shows the spirit of "Don't tell me what I can't do!". But they are doomed to failure since TPTB say there is only a single timeline.  :(

I disagree with your interpretation, for the reason I do believe they have free will in 1977, it is their present as well as the other people around them, (Dharma, hostiles etc...) What I think the writers have been showing us and what is meant by whatever happened happened is these are the choices they made in 1977. They are not limited to what they can and cannot do, they can do whatever they want, like lie to the DI and say you crashed, become members of said initiative and choose to listen to Juliet who says "you should go and help kate with ben". Those are all choices Sawyer made, what he chose to do. and what he chooses to do has a direct impact on his surroundings, the thing is that the in 2004 when they boarded oceanic 815 in Australia, they had already been back to 1977 and there acts in 1977 shaped the events that determined how the world turned out, just as you and I do every day, if we weren't alive anymore, say we both died yesterday, That would directly affect what happens in the world in some shape or another. I realize I'm no Barack Obama, but it would definitely have an impact on my immediate family at least,  you can say without a doubt the world would have been different had we still been alive, but we are not alive, that is what happened.

In that same sense what ever the losties do in 1977 has already happened when they boarded that plane in Australia, we are just being shown what they did, the "choices they made.  I suppose that the 77'ers will reunite with the other 315'ers in present time eventually and then events can be altered, at least that is what I felt was a pretty sound theory until Daniel brings up this "We Can" attitude, so who knows.

Offline this is some crazy stuff

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #142 on: April 30, 2009, 11:48:42 PM »
I agree that that they have free will in 1977 because it is their present, but Charles, Eloise, Richard, and the rest of the Others in 2004 remember what happened in 1977 and it will not change because to them Daniel and the rest of the 815ers/freighties have already occurred in 1977. 

Does that make sense to anyone, cause sometimes I think it does but when I type it, it seems wrong. 

Also I believe that the reason why Daniel knew when Chang would get there or that something was going to happen at the Swan in a matter of hours was because he has gone to the future.  Remember when he was talking to Charles at his house.   He said something to the effect of " I even did the experiments on myself."  This could also explain why he was so sad to see the plane crash.   He did not necesarrily remember what happened because something was wrong with his memory at the time, which is confirmed by Eloise when she tells Daniel that " Even if she did call he would not remember.   But he was still sad because his subconcious remembered that something happened.

hahaha Maybe??????????

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #143 on: April 30, 2009, 11:57:25 PM »
I agree that that they have free will in 1977 because it is their present, but Charles, Eloise, Richard, and the rest of the Others in 2004 remember what happened in 1977 and it will not change because to them Daniel and the rest of the 815ers/freighties have already occurred in 1977. 

Not sure what you mean by occured, but the nothing will change is due to the fact the the choices they make in 77 are the choices they always made in 77. How 2007 Widmore and Eloise remember it happening.

Does that make sense to anyone, cause sometimes I think it does but when I type it, it seems wrong. 

Also I believe that the reason why Daniel knew when Chang would get there or that something was going to happen at the Swan in a matter of hours was because he has gone to the future.  Remember when he was talking to Charles at his house.   He said something to the effect of " I even did the experiments on myself."  This could also explain why he was so sad to see the plane crash.   He did not necesarrily remember what happened because something was wrong with his memory at the time, which is confirmed by Eloise when she tells Daniel that " Even if she did call he would not remember.   But he was still sad because his subconcious remembered that something happened.

hahaha Maybe??????????

But when he was talking to charles it was in 2004 and the incident was in 1977, so are you saying he went to the past in 2004, and scrambled his mind.

Because if you were saying that then why would he have to go to ann arbor at all, why not skip straight to the variable and blow up the swan in 1974?

His memory was healed before the tiem flashes so if he knew about the purge and it was 1974 then why not save them right away?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 11:59:57 PM by SQUIRT199 »

Offline this is some crazy stuff

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #144 on: May 01, 2009, 12:01:09 AM »
Ok maybe he did not know about the Swan Station until he went to Ann Arbor and did more experiments but maybe he knew about the plane already because when he was experimenting on hiim self in the 2000s he went into his future, and learned of the plane crash.

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2009, 12:02:08 AM »
Ok maybe he did not know about the Swan Station until he went to Ann Arbor and did more experiments but maybe he knew about the plane already because when he was experimenting on hiim self in the 2000s he went into his future, and learned of the plane crash.

Ok, I'm down with this.

Offline Bostonlost

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2009, 04:32:25 AM »
SQUIRT199

I actually enjoy debating this with you and if I got sensitive I apologize....


To reiterate I never said that this will happen....


My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...I never said this would happen? How the hell do I know what will happen? I am trying to use logic.     Because there is a sense of logic with time travel as crazy as that sounds.

Look Dan says you can't change the past in a way he is right and wrong

If a person is always in their present, no matter what time he or she is in, then this person can change the future. In 1977 they will change the events of 2004....They are going into the past to change events in the future, which may or may not be their past, because they are always in the present.


I believe in that..... I believe that to be possible

But what if events do change then that is a alternate time line

If the hatch is not needed and the electromagnetic energy is contained or whatever. Then flight 815 never crashes on the Island (the shows theory) the it either lands in LA or maybe crashes someplace else and they all die (wouldn't that be a twist). Either way that would be a new history a alternate time line

Offline Dharma Bum

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2009, 06:41:15 AM »
I can definitely see where you're coming from, Bostonlost. I may be in the minority, but, like someone said, it is only a fictional show after all, and everything is pure speculation.

I'll be very interested to see how they end this season, as with a whole season to go, they seem to be answering a lot of questions in this season. Leads me to believe that there are still some BIG twists in store here...

Offline ukslim

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #148 on: May 01, 2009, 07:19:00 AM »
My point was always if Dan is dead and the hatch is built then and Ellie goes off the Island and has a child named Dan....etc etc then that would be a circle Dan will always relive these events...

The words that stand out for me here are "if" and "relive".

"If"
We know the hatch gets built. There is no alternate universe. What happened, happened. We've seen the hatch, therefore it gets built. No "if" about it.

Lost's storytelling jumped around in time even before the characters started time traveling. If we saw something in a flashback or a flash forward, we knew that event was set in stone. Characters time traveling does not change that.

In The Variable, Daniel gets the idea that you can change the past - but I really think he's wrong.

Relive
Daniel (like everyone else) lives his life exactly once.
He is born, educated, works, goes to the island, jumps back in time, and is finally killed by the young woman who will become his mother. This happens exactly once, and nothing can change the way it pans out.

Offline Mommainternet

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #149 on: May 01, 2009, 07:59:07 AM »
as he was walking in to the camp, I was yelling at my tv, PUT THE GUN DOWN DUDE! YOU ARE WAY OUTNUMBERED!

I was thinking the same thing!  And really, it seemed like such an un-Daniel thing to do.  Isn't he more the type to walk up to one of the hostiles with his hands up saying, "I come in peace" ??

My thinking, too, you wouldn't walk into a hostile camp holding a gun, especially for Dan who earlier asked for a beginner's gun to carry.  And Dan seems too intelligent not to walk in his arms up in the air as a show of surrender rather than a gun as a show of force.