Author Topic: RIP Faraday  (Read 25231 times)

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2009, 05:48:03 PM »
Quote
I believe some of my difficulty is your partial English,  you are Spanish I am thinking?

Not quite sure what that means?

It is kind of a wise assy thing to say?  I am off to work but when I get back I will dumb things down for you so that you will better understand.......


I know that I have never been a key board tough guy with you

All it means is I think you are spanish, I come to that conlusion by your use of english,  (Am I wrong?) which has confused me sometimes, in the sense I think I know what you are trying to say but it doesnt come out clear,

in no way did I mean your opinions are not valid or wrong I am just having trouble understanding what your opinion is,  as I said it could be that your theory is so profound it is beyond me but I felt I have been dumbing my theory down for you and you still do not understand,  there have been a few conversations where we have argued this very point and by the end of it we seem to be on the same page and then in a later post you contradict your self to be against my opinion, I would love to totally understand what you mean by some of the things you are speculating but just when I think I do, I am confused again.

In general I believe that it is impossible to convey in words this complicated a subject and I am sure if we were face to face we would at the very least understand what the others position was, I doubt we would agree but at least we would know what the other person meant.

Not trying to be a keyboard tough guy or other tough guy with you and I apologize if I offended you.



« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 05:51:14 PM by SQUIRT199 »

Offline GUTZandRAGE

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2009, 05:51:53 PM »
He say you engleesh are no goo', meng.

Offline otros

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2009, 05:53:07 PM »
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 

A. Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is paradox.
B. It is a paradox because time is linear.
C. Since time is linear, time travel is not possible.

Since "C" is false (Time Travel is possible in the Lostverse), B is false. Since B is false, A must be false, too.

Therefore, being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is NOT a paradox.

QED.

your demo is wrong
let be:
p = Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is paradox
q = time is linear
r = time travel is not possible

your argument can be written like this:

P ^ (q => p) ^ (q => r) ^ -r.

now, saying that [-r ^ (q => r)] => -q is known as the consequent fallacy (the name may be wrong it's a free translation from spanish (my main language) "falacia del consecuente" .

C is false, but that doesn't mean that time is not linear, so you can't say that B is false.

After saying that, I concur with your point, I think being two ages at the same time is a paradox because time travel is not possible (in reality) but if you say that time travel is real (obviously in Lost it is) I don't see the paradox here.

@bostonlost: I think you get the circle because you are going back in time as an observer, if you follow only the Ellie's or Dan's timelines they are born and later die, no circle or anything. In 2008, Ellie is alive and Dan is dead and time moves on.

Offline ericd543

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2009, 05:53:18 PM »
In the order they happened not the order we have been shown,

- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time *(this always happened) O6 ARRIVAL at the island
- 2004 daniel dies  1977
- hatch is built  1980?
- daniel is born and eloise leaves the island 70's or 80's?
- daniel studies at oxford
- desmond crashes on the island
- 815 crashes
- daniel goes to the island for the first time
- ocenaic 6 get off island
- eloise is old
- desmond gets shot
- oceanic 6 return to the island and go back in time O6 DEPARTURE for the island
- mrs hawking meets penny in the hospital
- widmore confronts eloise outside the hospital and gets slapped,  (I believe this is as far into the future the show has gone.

No Loop  no repeats.

I thought I could help clarify your point by distinguishing between the departing and arrival events for Jack, Kate & Hugo. The O6 got split up and Locke, Ben and Sun are still in 2007. I agree with what you say, and what TPTB have said about having only one timeline.

I think some of this "done this before, stuck in a loop" business comes from characters with knowledge of the future. Knowledge of the future, like Charlotte's memory of Dan speaking to her as a child, negates free will. Dan was driven in some way and had to have that conversation with her. And that's what bothers me about the Lostverse version of a single time line.

Personally, if I was experiencing 1977 for a second time I would contact my 16 year old self to tell the younger me a few things. I don't see a paradox with young and old versions of yourself being in the same room at the same time, BUT ONLY IF the older version already has a memory of the meeting. "Oh yeah, I WAS that weird guy who claimed to be future me."

And this is were I think the LOST version of time travel (single timeline, no parallel universes) is weak. If there is only one way the past happened, and if you travel to the past, you are limited in what you can do. You do not have free will. Sayid was not free to kill Ben with something more effective, like dynamite. (tho maybe smokie could reassemble) Our Losties are not free to return to the mainland and meet with the younger version of themselves, because they didn't, etc. Everything they did not do, they can not do. There. That's the flipside to "what happened, happened" and the downside to living a life of destiny instead of one with free will. I believe we all have free will in real life, but the time travellers in LOST do not.

I like the Lost characters who challenge the notion of "what happened, happened" as it shows the spirit of "Don't tell me what I can't do!". But they are doomed to failure since TPTB say there is only a single timeline.  :(
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 06:08:12 PM by ericd543 »

Offline BrianIsLost2

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2009, 06:14:50 PM »
It isn't a theory it is logic....


If that Hatch is built and Des goes to the Island and Dan is dead then that creates a circle......


Where my theory kicks in is that this has been going on for some time now and Ellie and Widmore are the because of this


Remember when she confronts Desmond she tells him "you don't buy the ring"

This wasn't a Jedi mind trick she has seen this before...... she has lived it before she sends Dan to the Island to die because she has in the past



Its TIME TRAVEL!  You CAN'T apply logic to it.  There is no logic in time travel.  It is complete fiction!  TPTB can do whatever they want with it.  We must resist the urge to impose our own views of time travel on the show.  That is not our place.

Offline rhythm

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #125 on: April 30, 2009, 06:35:15 PM »
Everyone should just breathe for a second.  Emotions are running high and some are becoming a little prickly.

At the end of the day, it is a fictional show!

Offline BrianIsLost2

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #126 on: April 30, 2009, 06:39:47 PM »
Squirt, go look up "paradox" in a dictionery!  Anything that is self-contradictory is a paradox.  Being two different ages or existing in one time at two ages is a aparadox.  Being beside yourself literally is a paradox.  By definition. 

I think we can all agree that a paradox is a self-contodiction.  Right?  I think that the pressing question is can a paradox exist?  To some people, a paradox means "nope can't happen.  Anything that LOST does that is a paradoz means it is somehow not the case.  It does not happen."  But if you say yes to that question, the you would say "yes a paradox can exist and yes LOST can intoduce paradoxes all they want"  Where are we on that one?  Nova, I didn't mean to sound like I am talking to just you by quoting you, I just wanted the reader of my post to understand where I started my thought.

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #127 on: April 30, 2009, 06:42:20 PM »
Um...can I ask a stupid question? I brought my shield and armor in case y'all are gonna throw stuff at me...lol....but...

why does it matter if it's a paradox or not?

I'm sorry, there's all this argument over it, but maybe I missed where it all started, I just don't see the relevance.  :-\

Offline GUTZandRAGE

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #128 on: April 30, 2009, 06:44:39 PM »
I guess it's as relevant as arguing about anything else going on in a fictitious television show. Specially time travel. Because time travel sucks without Morlocks.

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #129 on: April 30, 2009, 06:48:07 PM »
lol...well, time-travel I can understand because it's a theme on the show, but I was just wondering where paradox came in and why everybody's talking about it...I know I must sound dumb, but I'm just trying to understand the argument here, since so many people are discussing it.

Offline Holland34

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #130 on: April 30, 2009, 06:48:33 PM »
Um...can I ask a stupid question? I brought my shield and armor in case y'all are gonna throw stuff at me...lol....but...

why does it matter if it's a paradox or not?

I'm sorry, there's all this argument over it, but maybe I missed where it all started, I just don't see the relevance.  :-\

You know, I've been sitting here mulling on the same thing.  I think the word "paradox" has everyone up in arms.  Since we all seem to be working on different definitions, I think we can focus on what the underlying point of the discussion is... not that I know what it is... don't mean to state I'm that smart... just that the arguments seem to be on the definition of a word rather than the real issues at hand.

Offline GUTZandRAGE

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #131 on: April 30, 2009, 06:49:11 PM »
I think you just murdered their fun, Mrs. A.

In cold blood, no less.  :P

Offline Holland34

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #132 on: April 30, 2009, 06:50:27 PM »
I think you just murdered their fun, Mrs. A.

In cold blood, no less.  :P

 ;D

Offline BrianIsLost2

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2009, 06:54:23 PM »
Um...can I ask a stupid question? I brought my shield and armor in case y'all are gonna throw stuff at me...lol....but...

why does it matter if it's a paradox or not?

I'm sorry, there's all this argument over it, but maybe I missed where it all started, I just don't see the relevance.  :-\

I hear ya.  This is kind of where I was going with my previous post

Offline TheBrightandTheDark

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Re: RIP Faraday
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2009, 06:57:50 PM »
Aw, I'm sorry, guys! I'm a cold-blooded thread killer.  :-X

I wasn't trying to make anybody feel bad about it, I'm just honestly wondering. Cause I wanna argue too! lol
But I can't argue something I don't understand and I just didn't know where it came from or where it was going. I know last week we had the "definition of a paradox" thread and I just had no idea where it came from, or why it mattered.  :-\ Ah! I'm just trying to learn stuff!