Author Topic: What is a Paradox?  (Read 8218 times)

Offline stimpygato

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2009, 03:00:46 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.

Offline SQUIRT199

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2009, 03:22:35 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.

I think he used aliases so that if he were approached by some in the Dharma initiative, he would know where they had been assigned based on the name they address him with,  that way he would not reveal any info that cettain people or groups should not know?

Offline BurkRoyer

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2009, 03:24:56 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.

I think he used aliases so that if he were approached by some in the Dharma initiative, he would know where they had been assigned based on the name they address him with,  that way he would not reveal any info that cettain people or groups should not know?

That's a lot of quotes!

Definitely not separate realities...

Offline lostandfree

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2009, 03:27:45 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).
I see the paradox issue as resolved for me but as the past cannot change... can the means that nets an the same end result change? Like a gun battle killing off DI instead of a purge through poison gas? Does it really matter how the end game occurs as long as the endgame remains the same? Please forgive my stupidity, as I love Star Wars, I just never was a big Sci-Fi person so some of this sorta gets me.....LOST.
You realize you're apologizing for not understanding the rules of time travel, right?  LOL  Since it doesn't exist, every stated rule is a theory... just a theory.
Yes. But some folks are so steadfast in their own theories about a fictional issue that I would prefer to apologize for my lack of commitment to avoid the insults that can occasionaly fly around here. I think TPTB are constantly tweeking all the rules and the what happened happened thing is way to vague. That is why I am trying to find out if I am the only moron who thinks that the end result does not change but the how we got that result can.
Fair enough.  And, I also believe minor things can change but the outcomes that matter remain unchanged.  Not that the minor things DO change.. just that they could.  We've been told of the universe course-correcting itself.. that was said for a reason.  Creflo's example of Miles always seeing himself as a baby... I can't get behind that because at some point, it never happened.  He had to be a baby without his older self seeing him the first time.  It's the looping thing I don't like. 

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.

I think he used aliases so that if he were approached by some in the Dharma initiative, he would know where they had been assigned based on the name they address him with,  that way he would not reveal any info that cettain people or groups should not know?

That's a lot of quotes!

Definitely not separate realities...

Okay, new contest.  How many quoted quotes can we get into one thread?

Offline stimpygato

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2009, 03:32:54 PM »

Definitely not separate realities...

I try to avoid using "definitely" when theorizing anything LOST, but I also like SQUIRT199's take on the reasoning.  ;D

I think he used aliases so that if he were approached by some in the Dharma initiative, he would know where they had been assigned based on the name they address him with,  that way he would not reveal any info that cettain people or groups should not know?

Offline Novashannon

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2009, 03:37:09 PM »
A paradox will have only occurred if a decision made by, say, the 1977 characters alters what has already been established.  For example, if Hurley was successful in changing the script to Empire Strikes Back, then his motivation for doing so would not exist.

Every action that every character is making in 1977 has always been the way it always happened.  Miles always saw himself as a baby.

There is no vagueness about W.H.H.  It's a great way to avoid paradox and complication.  Sayid always shot Ben in the chest (because he thought he could change history) and Ben was always taken to The Temple for brain washing.  If anyone makes any effort to change history, they are just playing their role in history.


That's how I see it, too.  Very straight-forward and understandable.

Offline stimpygato

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« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 03:54:01 PM by stimpygato »

Offline BobBX542

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2009, 05:13:56 PM »
Here is the Merriam-webster Definition

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paradox

And here is a good example...



The statement below this line is completely true
The statement above this line is false



Basicaly, it's a contradictory statement. Or situation when you're talking about time travel.

Offline Novashannon

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2009, 06:38:20 PM »
GMTA, I was going to post the definition, too.  By that definition, Miles the baby being in the same time as MIles the Freightie is indeed a paradox, because one contradicts the other.  Actually, I think time travel is by nature a paradox. 

Offline opgelost

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2009, 06:47:06 PM »
Quote
What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".

He did too many timetravelexperiments and now exists four times in the same time and has to use different names to understand who he is and has to watch out that they don't touch each other or they will all explode.  :D

Offline lostlady

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2009, 06:47:38 PM »

[/quote]

This thread needs more quoted quotes!!!


Here's a minor thingy that I could be WAY OFF BASE with, but...

What if some of the Pirre Chang aliases Waxman, Wickman, Candle etc.... were intentional inclusions of "Seperate Realities".
In other words, evidence that minor details DO CHANGE when time is messed with (as in the different DHARMA Station Orientation videos), just as major events CAN'T CHANGE. The details of the major event event might differ, but the outcome is always the same. The devil is in the details :) so to speak.
[/quote]

This theory goes along with the course correction idea. Desmond couldn't stop Charlie from dying. He was going to die. However, the way he died is changed. I like this idea. It means the Losties can and probably are changing some things but the outcome (whatever that may be) will always be the same.

Offline DaveJohnson

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2009, 06:48:35 PM »
As stated, two people existing in the same reference field is NOT a paradox. That is using Back-to-the-Future logic, which doesn't apply in Lost (because what happened happened, and the past cannot change).

So why was Dr. Chang so freaked out about the bunnies being in the room together during that orchid orientation video?

Because he didn't want the bunny to go: "WTF OMG iz dat me?"

Leading to emerging sentience in the bunny race.

Leading to the eventually overthrow of humans by super-intelligent time travelling numbered bunnies.

At least that's how I figure it  ;D

Offline sledgeweb

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2009, 09:26:23 PM »
Chang could be upset about the two bunnies, because any time you ring two identical entities from separate time-spaces together, there is the possibility for a paradox to occur, resulting in the complete collapse of the atomic structure of the universe, simultaneously completely rendering all matter non-existent. Including the entire planet earth, and every thing that lives. Miles being in the presence of his baby self isn't a paradox, but the fact that he is there opens up the classical paradox scenarios of killing himself as a baby, etc. The two bunnies appearing together wasn't a paradox, obviously - because nothing bad happened, but Chang was concerned about the potential of a paradox - if the future bunny shot the past bunny, for example - so he quickly ordered that the bunnies be separated and not allowed to see each other. Maybe? Just a thought.

Offline Novashannon

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2009, 09:36:29 PM »
According to the definition in the online dictionaries, Sledge, Miles being in two places at once does constitute a paradox.  In this instance, the paradox in itself does not seem destructive, b ut would need an active paradox, such as causing your father's death before you are conceived, to be a problem.  I don't think that can occur in this application, because tptb have stipulated that whatever happened, happened.  Of course, they have reneged on their premises before.

Offline hyperform

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Re: What is a Paradox?
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2009, 10:59:28 PM »
a paradox would be if young Ben would have died from the gun shot wound, while still existing in the future.