Ben Remembers Everything

[joetermini]

Richard Alpert states that Ben won't remember any of the events we've seen in the past few episodes if he goes in the Temple.

FALSE.

Ben remembers all of the people who joined Dharma who time travelled (our main characters). That's how the 50 year old Ben knows how to find them.

He convinces Juliet to come to the Island.

When Michael is given a list of people by Tom to bring to the Others' campsite in exchange for Walt, the list is exactly every person who don't belong in Dharma:

Sawyer
Jack
Kate
Hurley
etc.

[Laklost]

Howdy, Joe!  People who start posting with their own thread are always okay in my book!  But I do wonder what you mean - that he remembers everyone (which I agree with) versus the list of everyone who "don't belong in Dharma" and then you include the people who you just said he remembers. 

[The_Hatch_Monkey]

Yeah, I'm a little LOST...can you explain it a bit more?

[Mrs Alpert]

I also find it strange that his list was those people...when he just sent Hurley back to camp with a warning, and Jack was there to operate on his tumor. Sawyer and Kate were....? Just his captives? 

I wonder about Juliet in this, too. Did he track her down ahead of time because his obsession with her lasted so long, but he needed a reason to bring her to the island, so waited until after she succeeded in helping her sister become pregnant?

And what Richard says is that he won't remember any of this....but he never defines what he means by "this," so it's possible that the only thing Ben doesn't remember is being healed, or being shot. I agree that Ben remembers these folks from his Dharma Days.

Nice first post!!

[Maxor127]

I don't know if Ben remembers what happened, but I think he still knows what happened and probably what WILL happen.  I think that's how he always gets out of jams and always seems to know the right thing to say to manipulate someone.  And I think that's why he was shocked when Alex was killed and he said Widmore "broke the rules."  I think Alex wasn't supposed to die, and that's what Ben meant when he said "he broke the rules."  The rules being the rules of time travel.  I can't think of any other reason why Ben would react the way he did and make a statement like that.

[Zinzi]

When Michael is given a list of people by Tom to bring to the Others' campsite in exchange for Walt, the list is exactly every person who don't belong in Dharma:

Sawyer
Jack
Kate
Hurley
etc.

Hi Joe & welcome!  I think what Joe means is that the list is every person in 1977 who is in Dharmaville, but is not a real Dharma employee.  I'm really glad that you pointed this out Joe as I was only thinking about the lists the other day and was so busy puzzling over how come "Shephard wasn't even on Jacob's list" that I forgot about the list that was given to Michael.  That is interesting and I agree that I think Ben does remember the time travellers.  Mrs Alpert is right, Richard didn't specify what Ben wouldn't remember and I like the idea that it's just the healing part he won't remember.  Re Sawyer and Kate, yes they were his captives AND they helped build the runway, which implies that there was some knowledge that the runway would be needed?!  Time will tell and hopefully things will be clearer soon?!

Maxor, I think that when Ben said "He broke the rules" it was more to do with rules of not killing one of your own, or more specifically an Other?  Look at what happened to Juliet when she killed a fellow Other.  Now we know that Widmore was or is an Other (once an Other, always an Other I think!) then it was wrong for him to have Alex killed.  I think that Ben and Widmore's personal vendetta against each other has gotten out of control.  I think there must be certain rules when you are an Other and it's those rules that Ben says Widmore broke.  It might also involve not killing family members or children, but I'm not sure?!  Now the only problem with all these lines of thinking is that why did Ben denounce Alex as his daughter?  It seemed to me that Ben thought if he told the truth (that she wasn't his biological daughter) and also lied ("she means nothing to me", when she clearly did!) that he believed it would call Keamy's bluff and stop him killing Alex - SO I just blew my idea out of the water!  I always seem to do that when I start trying to work things out!  Maybe the rules are the rules of Ben and Widmores game / fight AND maybe the rules are that they can only kill other Others ( ) if they are family members?!    This whole being an Other thing mystifies me!  What with the killing your Dad initiation of Ben and Locke, they really don't seem to value the family unit much!  We need answers DAMMIT!  I really hope Locke pins down Christian or Richard and demands to know what's going on!

[Thomas]

Richard Alpert states that Ben won't remember any of the events we've seen in the past few episodes if he goes in the Temple.

FALSE.

Ben remembers all of the people who joined Dharma who time travelled (our main characters). That's how the 50 year old Ben knows how to find them.

He convinces Juliet to come to the Island.

When Michael is given a list of people by Tom to bring to the Others' campsite in exchange for Walt, the list is exactly every person who don't belong in Dharma:

Sawyer
Jack
Kate
Hurley
etc.

I don't think there was an etc....I think that was the whole list.    Jin wasn't on the list, yet he is back in time.   Juliet was already an other, and Ben should have remembered her when the List was put together.    It seems like the "Temple makes him forget" idea has a few holes, and the list idea isn't quite all inclusive either.   Seems like there is a piece of the puzzle still missing that can work these things out.   

I like the idea that ben remembers these people from his past, but it seems odd that he wouldn't have kept a closer eye on Juliet.     I'm thinking Ben may forget knowing any of the time travelers, but he will remember his past.    Most likely when the list is created, it is directed by Richard or another "Other" that retained their memory of the past.   Maybe they didn't know Jin, or just didn't want him, but they probably have an  "important historical figures to watch for in the future" list that they built over time as weird things happened.    That's probably what they study in the class they take right after Other Latin 101.

[Zinzi]

  LOL I love the idea of there being a school for Others with a syllabus!   

Good point about Jin not being on the list - MAYBE that's why Ben looks so shocked when he finds out Jin is alive (from Locke as Bentham) after the freighter blew up - he doesn't remember him from 1977, but he does remember some of the "important historical figures"!    PERHAPS Jin is not going to stay in 1977 for as long as the rest of the lostees?!  Oh I do hope he and Sun are re-united soon!

As Mrs Alpert said before Richard didn't specify what Ben won't remember and I definitely think he has some knowledge of future events.

[Maxor127]

I think too much is being made of that list.  Ben made it because he needed Jack to perform the surgery, and the only reason he included Sawyer and Kate was as a means of manipulating Jack into performing it.  And Hurley was included just to be a messenger.  I think it's just a coincidence that they happen to end up back in time too.  Sayid wasn't on the list, and Jin wasn't on the list.

[Mrs Alpert]

Zinzi, I like your idea about the "rules" that Widmore changed being that of killing another Other, and that you think you undid your idea by the end of your post, lol! (I do that often too  )

Alex said that she was Ben's daughter because she thought it would give her leverage. Ben said she wasn't his daughter because he thought it would give him leverage. Keamy's mission is to get Ben and Kill Everybody, so he doesn't care what either of them say. So he kills Alex. Widmore may or may not know about Alex being Ben's daughter, but either way, his instructions to Keamy were to Kill Everybody. That, to me, includes Others. You're right, Juliet was put on trial because there are consequences to "killing one of our own." Juliet was only there for 3 years, but she was included as an Other. Alex was part of the gang for 16 years, she's definitely an Other too.

So here's the thing. Why did Ben say that he changed the rules instead of he broke the rules? Unless Charles Widmore actually created those rules....in that case, he wouldn't be breaking them, just changing them by example.

...and.....I'm not sure if this post makes sense.  

[joetermini]

I think too much is being made of that list.  Ben made it because he needed Jack to perform the surgery, and the only reason he included Sawyer and Kate was as a means of manipulating Jack into performing it.  And Hurley was included just to be a messenger.  I think it's just a coincidence that they happen to end up back in time too.  Sayid wasn't on the list, and Jin wasn't on the list.

And there's your mistake. Lost has no coincidences. With the way the writers connect everything and everyone to each other, I can't see how this isn't significant. Ben recruited Juliet before the plane crash, Sayid wasn't a member of Dharma (or at least one that young Ben would remember).

If our idea about Ben's memory is correct (that he only forgets being shot and healed), then he wouldn't really remember Sayid. Also, because he returns to Dharma after being healed, he would still see Sawyer, Kate, Jack, and Hurley after rejoining Dharma. Also, he was surprised to see Jin alive after the explosion, which would explain his not being on the list.

Maybe only those those people on the list were the ones that stood out to Ben, or that they were part of some memorable event. I'm not sure how Miles avoid being included in the "important historical figures to watch for in the future" list, but hopefully next episode will focus on Dharma.

Another mystery here is why all of the freighter people (Charlotte, Miles, and Faraday) were specifically picked by Widmore to be part of the operation. All of them have connections to the Island, how did Widmore know to have all of them go?

[Zinzi]

Very good point Joetermini about Sayid not being Dharma.  I think that this makes a lot of sense and you are right, the writers wouldn't have included that list without good reason.  From what we've seen from the latest episode (Dead is Dead) little Ben remembers that his Dad is not particularly nice and he remembers that there is a Dharma to go back to, so I think it follows that we will soon see him back at Dharmaville and interacting with the lostees.  SO I stand by my statement that "PERHAPS Jin is not going to stay in 1977 for as long as the rest of the lostees?"  Either that or he breaks away from Dharma to find out where Sun is and so little Ben never meets him.

Miles is a different matter because he wasn't on Flight 815, so we can't include him in the list making process!  I could see the scenario of Ben knowing who Miles was from 1977 when he got the freighter people info from Michael OR it could be that he doesn't meet Miles when he returns to Dharma.  Again this could be because Miles breaks away from Dharma OR dies (I hope not as his character is brilliant and has so much potential)?!

That's also a very, very good point about the freigher people joe!  Maybe we'll see some more interaction between the 70s on island Charles Widmore and Dharma.  After all if they had this truce going on and Charles is riding around on his horse (where did the horse come from - descendant from one stolen from the 50s Jughead Army lot or maybe the Black Rock, that's another thread though!) then they must be doing their usual Other routine of gathering info and names.  Perhaps Widmore knows all about Charlotte, Miles and Faraday?  Perhaps Frank has a big role to play in 2007 too?

Mrs A, yes Ben did say changed the rules didn't he, I'd forgotten that!  Your post does make sense and I need to rewatch Dead is Dead to think about what we found out means to these rules.  It does seem like there are rules to being an Other though and so we're along the right lines with our way of thinking! 

Thanks joetermini you have made quite a few things click into place for me with this thread.  For the first time in ages things have become a bit clearer!