The timing of this episode seems way off

[hyperform]

We are such masochists! Continue watching even though we know our brains are going to hurt... I guess because it's a good hurt, LOL!

I like when my brain hurts, it means I'm learning.

[RM]

Widmore is talking to Locke about how they met when he was much younger.  Locke tells him that it happened 4 days ago in Locke time.  When Farraday mets Desmond in the hatch and tells him to go see his mother, Desmond wakes up in present time with that memory.  So wouldn't have Widmore remembered John Locke 4-5 days ago?

I don't think Widmore just remembered Locke 4 days ago.  He didn't say that.  How could you forget a guy who disappeared before your eyes when you were 17?  I think Widmore knew who John Locke was all along.  Only two years after Locke vanished, Richard went to see his birth and also visited him when Locke was 6yo -- Widmore was still in favor on the island during all that time -- (he said he was on the island for more than 30 years).  By the time Locke is in a wheelchair, Widmore is off the island as a wheeler-dealer.  (Do we have a guess for when Widmore left the island?  Are we assuming that Widmore is the financial backer of Dharma in the 70s?)  By 2004, Widmore is already off the island, has computed the window for finding the island on 9/22/04 and arranges (through Abaddon) for Locke to be on that plane.

My mom brought up the fact that Ben wants to get the O6 back to the island, and Widmore wants to get the O6 back to the island, so... um... why are they fighting? LOL.

Yeah, this is what gets me.  I don't understand what the difference is between what Jacob/Christian wants vs what Clair wants vs what Ben wants vs what Widmore wants.  The one rule Ben seems to go by is "A promise is a promise."  He said that to John but found a way to get Sun to go back to the island without John's breaking his promise to Jin about not visiting Sun and/or telling her that Jin is dead.  Seems like the only reason the O6 were allowed to leave was that Richard promised to let them go if they helped get Ben from the Freighters.  Then, once the O6 were off the island, Ben has to scheme how to get them back again.

------

Also, how's this:
Ben believes there is no way to get back to the island once he moves it.  Off island, he watches the O6 and Walt.  While watching Walt, he discovers that Locke is off the island.  He doesn't know there's a way to get back to the island until Locke mentions Eloise Hawking to him.  Ben kills Locke because he wants to go back and be in charge and he can't do that as long as Locke is around.  Ben goes to see Eloise (not knowing her connection to Widmore, thinking only she is connected to Jacob).  Eloise tells Ben that they must recreate the 815 flight so everyone has to go back.  (Ben doesn't know about Christian, so he has no reason to expect Locke to be resurrected when he returns to the island.)  Ben does Locke's job and convinces the O6 to go back via his manipulative shenanigans.  Desmond walks up and Ben finds out that Eloise is Faraday's mother (and thus connected to Widmore).  Ben really doesn't know about the Dharma station underneath the church (because the Dharma connection would have hipped Ben to the fact that Eloise is in with Widmore).

[Mrs Hume]

Widmore is talking to Locke about how they met when he was much younger.  Locke tells him that it happened 4 days ago in Locke time.  When Farraday mets Desmond in the hatch and tells him to go see his mother, Desmond wakes up in present time with that memory.  So wouldn't have Widmore remembered John Locke 4-5 days ago?

I don't think Widmore just remembered Locke 4 days ago.  He didn't say that.  How could you forget a guy who disappeared before your eyes when you were 17?  I think Widmore knew who John Locke was all along.  Only two years after Locke vanished, Richard went to see his birth and also visited him when Locke was 6yo -- Widmore was still in favor on the island during all that time -- (he said he was on the island for more than 30 years).  By the time Locke is in a wheelchair, Widmore is off the island as a wheeler-dealer.  (Do we have a guess for when Widmore left the island?  Are we assuming that Widmore is the financial backer of Dharma in the 70s?)  By 2004, Widmore is already off the island, has computed the window for finding the island on 9/22/04 and arranges (through Abaddon) for Locke to be on that plane.

My mom brought up the fact that Ben wants to get the O6 back to the island, and Widmore wants to get the O6 back to the island, so... um... why are they fighting? LOL.

Yeah, this is what gets me.  I don't understand what the difference is between what Jacob/Christian wants vs what Clair wants vs what Ben wants vs what Widmore wants.  The one rule Ben seems to go by is "A promise is a promise."  He said that to John but found a way to get Sun to go back to the island without John's breaking his promise to Jin about not visiting Sun and/or telling her that Jin is dead.  Seems like the only reason the O6 were allowed to leave was that Richard promised to let them go if they helped get Ben from the Freighters.  Then, once the O6 were off the island, Ben has to scheme how to get them back again.

------

Also, how's this:
Ben believes there is no way to get back to the island once he moves it.  Off island, he watches the O6 and Walt.  While watching Walt, he discovers that Locke is off the island.  He doesn't know there's a way to get back to the island until Locke mentions Eloise Hawking to him.  Ben kills Locke because he wants to go back and be in charge and he can't do that as long as Locke is around.  Ben goes to see Eloise (not knowing her connection to Widmore, thinking only she is connected to Jacob).  Eloise tells Ben that they must recreate the 815 flight so everyone has to go back.  (Ben doesn't know about Christian, so he has no reason to expect Locke to be resurrected when he returns to the island.)  Ben does Locke's job and convinces the O6 to go back via his manipulative shenanigans.  Desmond walks up and Ben finds out that Eloise is Faraday's mother (and thus connected to Widmore).  Ben really doesn't know about the Dharma station underneath the church (because the Dharma connection would have hipped Ben to the fact that Eloise is in with Widmore).

I think that is the best explanation I have heard yet! not that it is what I want because I was really still pulling for Ben to be good in the end and this theory doesn't allow for that but it explains a lot.

[trodge]

Widmore is talking to Locke about how they met when he was much younger.  Locke tells him that it happened 4 days ago in Locke time.  When Farraday mets Desmond in the hatch and tells him to go see his mother, Desmond wakes up in present time with that memory.  So wouldn't have Widmore remembered John Locke 4-5 days ago?

I don't think Widmore just remembered Locke 4 days ago.  He didn't say that.  How could you forget a guy who disappeared before your eyes when you were 17?  I think Widmore knew who John Locke was all along.  Only two years after Locke vanished, Richard went to see his birth and also visited him when Locke was 6yo -- Widmore was still in favor on the island during all that time -- (he said he was on the island for more than 30 years).  By the time Locke is in a wheelchair, Widmore is off the island as a wheeler-dealer.  (Do we have a guess for when Widmore left the island?  Are we assuming that Widmore is the financial backer of Dharma in the 70s?)  By 2004, Widmore is already off the island, has computed the window for finding the island on 9/22/04 and arranges (through Abaddon) for Locke to be on that plane.

In reading Bad Twin, if I remember correctly Widmore worked with the Hanso foundation or Hanso worked for Widmore, I can't remember which, but wasn't Dharma funded by Hanso?

How can Desmond not know who Farraday is when he visits him in London when Farraday has met Desmond when Desmond was working the hatch.  Or how come when Desmond is on the island with the losties much later and Farraday arrives he's not like, holy crap I met you when I was working at the hatch.  How Weird.  He doesn't because he doesn't remember this until Farraday just did it.  How come the same can't be said for Widmore meeting Locke?

On another note....

Now that I'm thinking about Desmond and the hatch and Farraday.  Desmond opens the door in the suit because he thinks if you breathe outside you get sick/die.  But then he's talking to Farraday who isn't wearing a mask, disproving this.  Plus wouldn't he have told his buddy, hey, I was talking to a guy outside who wasn't wearing a mask and then he just disappeared.  So why is he pissed when he see's his partner(I forget his name) go outside with a ripped suit which means it isn't bad to go outside without a suit on.

Also, I really like your theory at the end of the post...

[MangoBingo]

Also, how's this:
Ben believes there is no way to get back to the island once he moves it.  Off island, he watches the O6 and Walt.  While watching Walt, he discovers that Locke is off the island.  He doesn't know there's a way to get back to the island until Locke mentions Eloise Hawking to him.

I never believed the whole "whomever moves The Island can't go back" shtick.

More than a few people came and went to The Island with apparent ease; presumably via the DHARMA-constructed pod in the Orchid Station (which Ben destroyed).

I do believe that the submarine was used for transportaion during the DHARMA reign, but once Chang (?) had built the pod, the submarine became redundant. If Ms. Hawking wasn't lying by stating that The Island is always moving, well the DHARMA people found it using the Lamp Post Station even though it's never in one place. So, I don't believe it was impossible to return, just more difficult to return.

Ben kills Locke because he wants to go back and be in charge and he can't do that as long as Locke is around.

Agreed. I don't believe the murder was for any higher purpose.

Ben goes to see Eloise (not knowing her connection to Widmore, thinking only she is connected to Jacob).

I agree that there's been a Ben/Hawking meeting which we haven't seen - but I disagree that Ben doesn't know that she's connected to Widmore.

Eloise tells Ben that they must recreate the 815 flight so everyone has to go back.  (Ben doesn't know about Christian, so he has no reason to expect Locke to be resurrected when he returns to the island.)

I half-agree. I do think that Ben may have known there was a possibility that Locke would be resurrected.

Ben does Locke's job and convinces the O6 to go back via his manipulative shenanigans.  Desmond walks up and Ben finds out that Eloise is Faraday's mother (and thus connected to Widmore).  Ben really doesn't know about the Dharma station underneath the church (because the Dharma connection would have hipped Ben to the fact that Eloise is in with Widmore).

I disagree with all this last bit. I think that Ben knows whom Ms. Hawking is; her being at the Lamp Post Station; what the Lamp Post station is for etcetera. The Island was practically DHARMA-central until the purge and Ben would have had access to all DHARMA's files and data.

[Mrs Alpert]

I never believed the whole "whomever moves The Island can't go back" shtick.

I'm with you, MB. The only time we heard that was from Ben's lips, and those are lying lips.

More than a few people came and went to The Island with apparent ease; presumably via the DHARMA-constructed pod in the Orchid Station (which Ben destroyed).

Richard left the island in 1956 to see newborn Locke, so he at least knows a non-Dharma way to travel to & from the island. But he doesn't share that kind of privileged information with just anybody. 

[MangoBingo]

I never believed the whole "whomever moves The Island can't go back" shtick.

I'm with you, MB. The only time we heard that was from Ben's lips, and those are lying lips.

I was suspicious enough at the time he said it, to start a poll...

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?topic=8173.0

It makes for interesting reading, now.

[Novashannon]

People have come and gone from the island via sub, but Ben siad he couldn't go back if he left using the wheel.  Now, the way to tell if Ben is lying is by seeing if he says anything!  LOL.  Either Ben lied about that, or he thought it was true.  If he thought it was true, then why would he get on that plane?  Surprise!  Ben lied!

Now, according to Eloise, the island is always moving.  that means it is not necessarily moving due to the wheel.  So, what  does the wheel do?  We know it send people to Tunesia (why Tunesia?)>

[Laklost]

Because it's one of the pockets of electromagnetic power -- like where Isaac was in Australia.

[Novashannon]

Okay, so is there a way to come out at other pockets?

[Mrs Alpert]

Okay, so is there a way to come out at other pockets?

Oh, that would be interesting!

[Laklost]

You would think there would be multiple exit points - and I can't explain why they have only shown the characters using one.  But I think that Ben's stash-o-passports is a clue that there is more than one exit point.  He knew he was in Tunisia when he landed - knew where his little box of goodies was.  But we also know he was prepared to pop out on the globe lots of other places.

[Mrs Alpert]

PLUS! He told Locke he was going somewhere cold, and that's why he put on the jacket, but he was only in the FDW cave for like, a few minutes, compared to the hours he knew he'd be in the Tunisian desert.

[Laklost]

Right.  The fact that John was in shirt sleeves and didn't get frost bite lets us know that the hole is not as cold as say Maine is. 

[jodeci]

Okay, so is there a way to come out at other pockets?

wasn't the tunisia the polar opposite of where the island was at that time??