Author Topic: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?  (Read 4519 times)

Offline TimeTravelIsCool

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John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« on: February 04, 2009, 09:46:13 AM »
Old-John told Richard to go and see him at his birth.
We have seen in past flashbacks that Richard went to John's birth.

So this seems to be proof of Dan's strings explination of time - "if it didn't happen, it can't happen"
 ie everything has already happened and cannot be changed.

I think that this is the first time that we have seen someone in present time, affect the past with their actions, and it wasn't shown as a new memory, it had already happened!!
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 10:07:46 AM by TimeTravelIsCool »

Offline jugdish

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 12:07:20 PM »
But from my understanding of the time travel Lost is doing, Locke did not change anything because he always had that conversation with Richard in 1954. That always had happened so it did not change anything

Offline on the island

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 12:39:57 PM »
How can he do something before he was born and "it's always happened"?  ???

Offline themaven

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2009, 12:43:02 PM »
In a Linear time line he could not have had the conversation with Richard in the 50's because he was not yet born.. Only by travelling back in time and suggesting to Richard that he come see him after he is born does this change, therefore going back in time altered the path of Richard to send him to Locke's birth and the "test".
Would he have done these things had Locke not come back and spoke with him??

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 12:55:08 PM »
In the original time line Locke crashes on the island as he did. When he tells Richard that he is the new leader, Richard wants to bring him to the island before he was supposed to come. Locke fails the test and prevents his early arrival. (Dan's time travel rule) Richard tries again to recruit Locke early and it fails. I forget is this when he breaks his back? Either way Richard's presence in no way changed the future for Locke. But Locke changed Richard's future the first time he traveled back to give him his compass back. But it's OK since Richard is an intergalactic alien cyborg from the 27th century.

Offline jugdish

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 01:30:01 PM »
What I am saying is that in Richards original time line locke came and visited him in 1954 and they had the conversation that they had.

That is how I understand it, We may need Astro to explain it better.

Offline tonysee200x

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 01:41:38 PM »
This is what I think the writers are going for.

It always happened the way we saw it and it only happened once. Locke always told Richard to come visit him at birth, this time period did not pass once without locke, then again when he goes back in time with locke. (We can never know what would have happened had locke not told Richard this because it only happened once and he told him).

When it comes to something like Desmond all of a sudden waking up and "remembering" Faraday's meeting, it happened the way we saw it. One day Desmond was in the hatch pushing the button and Faraday knocked on the door and he came out and talked to him. But because Desmond mind can't handle it he has a kind of "time travel amnesia" and he does not remember it till some point in the future when it all makes sense.

Kind of kills the who idea of free will but I think that is what the writers are going for. -- (And note free will has been the theme of some of the shows, remember Juliet saying at the book club "there is still such a thing as free will..." or something like that)


My opinion is don't get bogged down by the details of how can there be two of the same compasses etc. There is in fact no real time travel rules, so the writers can make up any theory they want. Enjoy the ride, the reveal is never as good as the trick.

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 01:46:06 PM »
Not unless you get into MPUs, Locke has to grow up to travel back. There has to be an original time line in which Locke never visited Richard in 1954 and Richard never visits little boy Locke. Only after Locke grows up and travels to the past does Richard have a reason to visit boy Locke.

Maybe the first time Locke travels and meets Richard, Richard does not believe him and later tells Locke to give him the compass so the next time they meet he will believe him.

Offline tonysee200x

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2009, 02:06:09 PM »
Not unless you get into MPUs, Locke has to grow up to travel back. There has to be an original time line in which Locke never visited Richard in 1954 and Richard never visits little boy Locke. Only after Locke grows up and travels to the past does Richard have a reason to visit boy Locke.

Maybe the first time Locke travels and meets Richard, Richard does not believe him and later tells Locke to give him the compass so the next time they meet he will believe him.

If two different things happened that would be MPUs. It happened once and the one time it happened future locke was there telling richard what he told him and richard acted the way we saw. You can jump around on the string, you can even jump to before you were born, but you can not change what happened -

-- That is my opinion of what they are going for and until they show the same scene happen two different ways that is what I am sticking with.

Offline JMart

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 02:11:30 PM »
But from my understanding of the time travel Lost is doing, Locke did not change anything because he always had that conversation with Richard in 1954. That always had happened so it did not change anything

correcto.



Offline Jungle Otter

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 02:58:15 PM »
Time is linear but for the people on the island after the wheel has turned, time had become a moebius strip....it follows a set path but also turns back on itself, and parts interact with parts that came after (or before depending on point of view). So it has all happened and will again.....until the strip is separated and "straightened out". Even so, the events of the past, present and future have all occurred and cannot be changed except for that future which hasn't occurred yet and depends on the events of the recent past.

Locke and Richard conversed in 1954, Richard is in the hospital after Locke is born, he visits Locke as a child, Locke and Richard "first" meet in 2005, Locke becomes leader.....

Offline on the island

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 05:26:54 PM »
But from my understanding of the time travel Lost is doing, Locke did not change anything because he always had that conversation with Richard in 1954. That always had happened so it did not change anything

correcto.




I'm really not trying to be difficult but that is impossible.

Offline AstroJones

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 06:14:29 PM »
Not unless you get into MPUs, Locke has to grow up to travel back. There has to be an original time line in which Locke never visited Richard in 1954 and Richard never visits little boy Locke. Only after Locke grows up and travels to the past does Richard have a reason to visit boy Locke.

Maybe the first time Locke travels and meets Richard, Richard does not believe him and later tells Locke to give him the compass so the next time they meet he will believe him.

Actually this isn't true.  This is an age old wives tale with time travel stories, and its probably what's messing most people up with how they're doing it on Lost.  Put simply, if we assume that the rules are correct, even if there are occasional exceptions, the rules we've been given by Daniel turn out to be true, then what he said was 'there is only one street.'  The "street" is time.  So in this case we can't use words like "in the original timeline" because there's no such thing as the "original timeline" there is only THE Timeline. 

The best or easiest way I can put this is like this...and this analogy or description isn't perfect at all, but I'm only trying to use it as an illustration...basically, imagine what we've heard of in the past as the big bang.  But instead of thinking of it as something linear that exploded and moved outward, imagine that when the big bang happened, everything, at the exact same moment, was born.  So in the blink of an eye, the entire birth, life, and death of the universe, and everything within it, happened simultaneously.  So the birth of Locke, the death of Locke, and every moment in between happened at the exact same time in the snap of your fingers.  That's basically what predestination is at its core.  There is no decision or choice in the universe because everything was pre-ordained.  If you look at it this way, then you tend to not get as hung up on the idea of "something had to happen first."  Naturally, this "when did it first happen" is still difficult to ignore, but non-the-less, its the best way to approach it and not go insane.

Now, to expand further, this doesn't mean we can't still have paradoxes, it just limits them somewhat.  For example, thinking of time in this way means that Locke from the future telling a past Richard to visit him as a child and therefore setting all of the other events in his life in motion is not a paradox or contradiction.  Locke was still born, he still lived his life.  Same with Richard.  However, the compass could still pose problems if not dealt with correctly.  Essentially, the compass could be a paradox because it appears to have actually existed only within the cycle of these two men.  In otherwords, just like people must be born, a compass must be manufacture in a factory somewhere or put together by a person.  But what we've seen so far is just that the compass went from Richard to Locke to Richard. 

To fix this, there HAS to be 2 compasses.  There is more than one way to do it, but an example would be that the compass was manufactured and then Richard buys or acquires it.  Its important to him, so he keeps it close by.  In 1954, a strange bald man shows up and gives him an exact duplicate of the compass with crazy stories about time travel.  He's skeptical, but he keeps his original compass in his pocket and the compass Locke gave him in a baggie.  He shows a young Locke one of the two compasses (doesn't matter which one).  After many years he gains a new understanding for what is happening and knows what he must do.  So at the right moment he meets John at the plane and gives him one of the two compasses.  This "life of the compass" is one way to avoid a paradox in this situation.  There are other ways, but they all, as far as I know, require 2 compasses.  Anyway, I've rambled on enough.


Offline AstroJones

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 06:34:43 PM »
But from my understanding of the time travel Lost is doing, Locke did not change anything because he always had that conversation with Richard in 1954. That always had happened so it did not change anything

correcto.




I'm really not trying to be difficult but that is impossible.

Impossibilities are based on perception.  ;)

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 07:04:05 PM »
This is a paradox because it turns into a chicken and the egg problem. Which came first, John giving Richard the compass so Richard knows to give it to John or Richard giving John the compass so John knows to give it to Richard? I agree that there are 2 compasses, one is 50 years older then the other.

I only say there needs to be an "original time line" is because there has to be a time when Locke time travels to 1954 without a compass and Richard does not believe him and does not visit and test John. After 2004 Richard learns of John's crash and healing spine he believes him. This time line Richard gives John the compass so when he travels back to 1954 Richard now has his proof and uses the compass to test young John.  So this now makes it at least the third time John travels back to 1954 and talk to Richard. I think regardless of Richards visits to young John, Locke would have crashed on the island on flight 815.

This is why I hate time travel, it's too messy.