Author Topic: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?  (Read 4436 times)

Offline AstroJones

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 07:19:32 PM »
See this is where we have to agree to disagree.  I say the chicken before the egg isn't a paradox anymore than this is.  There only has to be a beginning when it didn't happen if you're assuming a linear model of time.  This isn't a linear model of time.  This is one where every point in time came into existence at the same instant.  If you look at it this way, then there is actually no "beginning" of anything.

I see linear time as a 'flat earth' model.  One that is widely accepted and easily understood, but not necessarily correct.  When we believe that the Earth was flat, there would have been a point on the planet (or multiple points) that were the "beginning" of the surface area.  But once you learn that the Earth is in fact round, there's no longer a need to have a starting point.  Where does the surface of the Earth start?  Its an irrelevant question. 

I certainly agree that time travel can be messy.  And if there turned out to be only one compass, we'd certainly have a fine time travel paradox on our hands.  But from my perception, Locke's actions present no such paradox (and neither does the chicken coming before the egg ;) ).  But I'll close by saying that all of this is based on the rules we've been presented.  Time travel is a fictional device being used in story-telling, so the writers ultimately get to decide the realities of what is and isn't allowed.  And we have to accept that, or not.  :)


Offline CastawayCayley

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2009, 07:24:15 PM »
Well put, Astro.

Offline themaven

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2009, 07:59:36 PM »
Good argument Astro, and i see your point.. However I don't feel the rules in the show are as they have expressed... If this were all set and and layed out simultaneously throughout the timeline there would be no need for Eloise to visit desmond in the past to keep him on course. Same could be said for Charlie. When Desmond saved him the first time, he altered their future. Even though Charlie died through different circumstances later, if he had not been saved he would have never made it to the hydra and disabled the jamming device and so on...  Further info to the contrary is the Comicon video stating they had opened a pin hole in time to send a message to the future in hopes of reforming Dharma, this was shot by Daniel and starring Candle who have both admitted to not being able to change things. If either one of them really believe this, then they would not have bothered making the film.
Not arguing Astro's point, but rather the point that we should not trust the "rules" put fourth so far by the characters in the show.

Offline AstroJones

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 10:08:17 PM »
Well maven, its funny you bring that up.  I sound like I'm defending the rules, and in reality I'm only rationalizing and explaining as if the rules were accurate.  I think the writers are trying VERY hard right now to drill the rules in our head.  I find myself wondering why they'd go to such lengths to make sure we get the rules that things can't change.  The only thing I can come up with is that they're setting us up.  Desmond seems to be an obvious key.  Hawking visited Desmond because he's special and the one person who the rules don't apply to (apparently).  And that was further proven when he appeared to have altered Charlie's destiny. 

As for Daniel and Chang making that film, I'd say that something major has to be in store for us, something that proves to each of them beyond a doubt that things CAN change.  Still, right now I'm operating under the rules and attempting to justify things under the rules until we know differently.  I mean, if 2 scientists on the show think that the rules are true, there has to be a good reason for it.  :)

Offline TimeTravelIsCool

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 08:00:25 AM »
This is a paradox because it turns into a chicken and the egg problem. Which came first, John giving Richard the compass so Richard knows to give it to John or Richard giving John the compass so John knows to give it to Richard? I agree that there are 2 compasses, one is 50 years older then the other.

I dont think this is right, and there can't be 2 compasses.
If there are 2 compasses, then and the loop continues - that means that this number of compases will increase infinitely.

ie
2004 - Richard gives John compass for the 1st time
1954 - John gives Richard compass - Richard now has 2 in 1954
2004 - Richard gives John 1 of his 2 compasses
1954 - John gives Richard compass - Richard now has 3 in 1954
......
1954 - John gives Richard compass - Richard now has 1024 compasses in 1954  :D

Offline Writers_Strike

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2009, 08:54:59 AM »
This is a paradox because it turns into a chicken and the egg problem. Which came first, John giving Richard the compass so Richard knows to give it to John or Richard giving John the compass so John knows to give it to Richard? I agree that there are 2 compasses, one is 50 years older then the other.

I don't think this is right, and there can't be 2 compasses.
If there are 2 compasses, then and the loop continues - that means that this number of compasses will increase infinitely.

ie
2004 - Richard gives John compass for the 1st time
1954 - John gives Richard compass - Richard now has 2 in 1954
2004 - Richard gives John 1 of his 2 compasses
1954 - John gives Richard compass - Richard now has 3 in 1954
......
1954 - John gives Richard compass - Richard now has 1024 compasses in 1954  :D

No it is a loop. Richard only has one compass until 1954 when Locke brings him a second one. Richard gives Locke the compass to give back to Richard in 1954. Locke only comes to 1954 once in Richards point of view. You are assuming that Locke is coming back to visit Richard right after he leaves. ie...

Locke gives Richard a compass and disappears. 5 seconds later Locke comes back to give Richard a compass and disappears. 5 seconds later Locke comes back to give Richard a compass and disappears.....This is not what is happening.

And since on day 41 there are 2 John Lockes, one at the hatch with the light and 1 with our time travelers looking at the light, why cant there be 2 compasses?

Offline themaven

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2009, 01:57:37 PM »
Astro,
I do agree with you that they seem to be emphasizing the rules quite a bit and it does feel like a set-up.

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: John changing his own past - is this a new thing?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2009, 04:39:06 PM »
Astro,
I do agree with you that they seem to be emphasizing the rules quite a bit and it does feel like a set-up.

I wrote a whole essay about this, last week:
http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2009/02/never-mind-the-paradox-by-mang.php#more