Author Topic: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?  (Read 6662 times)

Offline redshadow

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The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« on: January 29, 2009, 08:40:50 PM »
Did anything actually change during the episode? Both Dr. Chang and Fariday mention the rules of time travel. Should we assume then that nothing that the castaways did during their time in 1954 had any lasting effects for anyone not moving thru time. Were the knifes to the chest and necks snapped undone the next time everyone moved thru time?

Of course there are those like Desmond who are exceptions. Maybe Richard is one of them?

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 08:49:10 PM »
We don't know yet. I believe that it's becoming more evident that Ms. Hawking lied. Chang and Faraday may just have been mistaken in their hypotheses.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 10:03:17 PM »
Maybe the loophole is that it wasn't one of the time travelers who did the neck-snapping.

Offline Thomas

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 11:21:48 PM »
Did anything actually change during the episode? Both Dr. Chang and Fariday mention the rules of time travel. Should we assume then that nothing that the castaways did during their time in 1954 had any lasting effects for anyone not moving thru time. Were the knifes to the chest and necks snapped undone the next time everyone moved thru time?

Of course there are those like Desmond who are exceptions. Maybe Richard is one of them?

I vote no.   Nothing has changed.   My guess is that the encounter between Richard and Locke back in 1954 could be the reason that Richard came to see Locke as a child, and the reason they picked Locke as their leader....nothing changed.    This could also be the reason that Abaddon came looking around for Locke.   Widmore remembered him too.   

I don't think Desmond can change the past either, but because of his special ability, can remember things from the past or the future.     When he remembered the incident at the Hatch door with Daniel, that event must have happened.    He got the memory when he needed it, so he could play his part in how the future will play out.   Just like his job was to keep Charlie alive until the Looking Glass.    That is where Charlie was meant to die, the other times Desmond was meant to save him.   All working together to keep the timeline intact.

The snapped necks and knives don't undo when time shifts.   Those events happened.   Widmore would remember it.    If Desmond had asked him to talk about his past, he could have told it just like we see it.   


Offline Staggerlee

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 12:05:31 AM »


J. Wood, as usu. has an amazing summation and run down of info behind the ideas this weeks epi...


http://www.powells.com/blog/?p=4476#more-4476



including some info on the time travel stuff....
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion.

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Offline Gmonkey

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 01:32:20 AM »
everytime I hear the "rules of time travel i can't help but think of widmore and ben in s4 when Ban said "you changed the rules"

anyone think there is a link?

Offline AstroJones

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 11:29:30 AM »
I think so Gmonkey.  Its too similar of a dialog to not be important (unless its meant as a red herring ;) )

I'm also starting to think more and more that the "Rules" of time travel might not be so hard and fast as we were led to believe.  I think the rules DO exist, without a doubt.  But I also think that there are exceptions to the rules.  I think that Ms. Hawking, for instance, knows that Desmond is an exception, so in order to keep him in check, she makes him think he can't really change anything.  But I think he can.  I mostly think this because saying that we can't change anything basically takes free will away from us.  Most people in this world are not satisfied with the notion that we don't have free will.  So at this point at least, its my thought that the writers are leading us down a path where the characters of the show are led to believe that there is no free-will, only fate and destiny, all predetermined.  But in the very end, free will is going to show its face in a climactic way.  At least, I hope so!

Offline Staggerlee

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 11:46:59 AM »
But in the very end, free will is going to show its face in a climactic way.  At least, I hope so!


That I can accept!  much better than I can the idea of the Isle being Atlantis*.





*that one's rearing it's head again on another thread, and I've laid out my idea/feelings about it there...
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Offline JMart

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 03:04:16 PM »
i look it at as... they were always going to travel to that time, always going to throw a knife, always going to snap dudes neck, always going to bleed from the nose... nothing is changing because this was always supposed to happen.

Offline on the island

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 06:02:40 PM »
I just read Jugdish's review and it brought up a question.

How is it not possible for Sawyer to talk to Des in the past, but it is possible for Sawyer (and everyone else) to speak to Richard, Others etc.?  What is the difference?

Wasn't the quote "It can't happen because it didn't happen."  None of these people had ever met.  They aren't each others constant.  I am sure I am overlooking something simple.

Offline JMart

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 06:05:59 PM »
the difference is this:

faraday had always talked to desmond in he past... it always happened... sawyer did not talk to faraday so it couldn't have happened.

sawyer always talked to the others in the past... so thats why it happened.


everything that is happening, already happened.. nothing is new or changing... they always time traveled, they always met who they met, and ate where they ate, etc.

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 06:07:27 PM »
I'm beginning to wonder if the Island has always been slightly in the past. The fan-created Timelines seem to rely on events off-Island. We already know because of Faraday's experiments with the rockets that there's some kind of time-distortion in effect.

Rose's illness "disappearing"... The dead doctor from the Kahana, washing-up on the beach without his scar... The H Bomb failing to detonate...

Maybe when the Others abducted Anthony Cooper, his death on the Island occurred at a point in Island time between Locke donating one of his kidneys and Locke breaking his back. Sawyer killing Cooper at that point removed him from our time, creating an alternate timeline in which Locke's spine was never injured because Cooper was already dead. Why Locke wouldn't remember both versions of his past, I can't explain. Yet.

Does anybody know what I mean?

I don't think the Island has restorative powers in the literal sense. Ben's tumour continued to grow. Locke's donated kidney never grew back - but he could walk again. Maybe Anthony Cooper had to die so Locke could walk again and become a more able leader.

Say that Cooper's abduction off-Island occurred in December 2004 (our time). When Tom (?) took him back to the Island, it was actually say... 1995 on the Island; after the kidney donation but before Cooper broke Locke's back in 2000. Killing Cooper in 1995 would alter the future so Locke could walk again.

Offline on the island

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 06:08:21 PM »
He has always talked to the Others in 1954?  but not Des a couple of years earlier?

Offline WhatThe

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 06:09:56 PM »
I just read Jugdish's review and it brought up a question.

How is it not possible for Sawyer to talk to Des in the past, but it is possible for Sawyer (and everyone else) to speak to Richard, Others etc.?  What is the difference?

Wasn't the quote "It can't happen because it didn't happen."  None of these people had ever met.  They aren't each others constant.  I am sure I am overlooking something simple.

Well...maybe it's that, since we know Richard does go and witness Locke's birth, he was always meant to do that. So Locke talking to Richard back then was always meant to happen. The bomb does end up getting buried beneath the hatch (supposedly beneath the hatch, anyway), so Daniel was always meant to talk to both Richard and Ellie in order to get taken to the bomb. And so on and so forth.

Others have mentioned Dez being Daniel's "constant" and that being why he was able to talk to Dez while Sawyer was not.

Offline MangoBingo

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Re: The time travel rules - Was the past changed?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 06:12:05 PM »
He has always talked to the Others in 1954?  but not Des a couple of years earlier?

That line of thinking would explain that "it is because it was" but doesn't explain "it isn't because it wasn't". It should either be one rule or neither.