Author Topic: Compass Paradox  (Read 2601 times)

Offline jugdish

  • Dharma VIP
  • *******
  • Posts: 16716
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 11:23:21 AM »
This is why I dislike the time traveling idea. Your explanation makes sense, but look how complicated it got.

Offline AstroJones

  • OTHERS 
  • Survivor
  • *****
  • Posts: 821
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 11:31:13 AM »
oh exactly.  There is NEVER anything simple about time travel.  There's always someone that can come up with an explanation and example for and against the paradox scenario.  I love time travel novels and stories Juggy, and I was still hoping they didn't take that route in Lost.  I knew I'd enjoy it, but I also knew many fans would be frustrated with it.

Offline Matt_at_TSH

  • Background Extra
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 06:19:27 PM »
This is why I stated "unless, of course, Alpert has 2 idential compasses" in my second post on this thread.

Offline Creflo

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 606
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2009, 08:50:26 AM »
The problem with the above timeline (Alpert already had compass in '54, Locke gives him a duplicate, then Alpert gives it to Locke at the Beechcraft) is that matter cannot be created or destroyed [Conservation of Mass].  In '54 there are 2 compasses, and in the '90s there are none.

This is NOT a problem for me, though, because matter can be converted to energy or be created from energy.

TPTB are dancing around having multiple parallel universes and that's fine with me.  MPU would kill this show, but if time travel is introduced then MPU can be difficult to avoid.

Offline Thomas

  • Background Extra
  • *
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2009, 09:49:43 AM »
The problem with the above timeline (Alpert already had compass in '54, Locke gives him a duplicate, then Alpert gives it to Locke at the Beechcraft) is that matter cannot be created or destroyed [Conservation of Mass].  In '54 there are 2 compasses, and in the '90s there are none.

This is NOT a problem for me, though, because matter can be converted to energy or be created from energy.

TPTB are dancing around having multiple parallel universes and that's fine with me.  MPU would kill this show, but if time travel is introduced then MPU can be difficult to avoid.

Just for fun...Here's a way to get around the Compass Paradox  -- I'll lay out the events in order in the continous timeline.

Point A -  Richard gets the compass (maybe he buys it, maybe Jacob gives it to him) He thinks it's important so he put's it in a safe place.

Point B - Some time later, Richard goes to check on the compass and it's gone.   In it's place there is a note that says "Your Leader has it and will return it to you"

Point C - Some time later in 1954 Locke walks into Camp and Gives him the compass


Point D - Time passes, Richard has held on to the compass since Locke gave it to him, he finds Lock at the plane and bandages his leg.   Richard remembers Point c and says (Take this compass and give it to me)

Lock then travels back in time to Point C and gives Richard the Compass, Richard remembers the note and thinks this could be a trick by Locke, but may think he's the leader.

Lock then travels back further in time to Point B and steals the compass and leaves a note to fool Richard.

Lock then travels back to the present time.   He runs into Richard and says...by the way...Here is your compass.    Richard, having remembered giving the compass to Lock at the Plane takes it back.   The compass lives happily ever after in Richard's possession.


Not that I think the writers will go to this much trouble, but the paradox can be avoided.   This scenario would mean that Locke manipulated the whole thing.

Offline Staggerlee

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1151
  • Karma does not announce itself, it just happens.
    • View Profile
    • In Praise of Shadows
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2009, 10:28:15 AM »


Just for fun...Here's a way to get around the Compass Paradox  -- I'll lay out the events in order in the continous timeline.

Point A -  Richard gets the compass (maybe he buys it, maybe Jacob gives it to him) He thinks it's important so he put's it in a safe place.

Point B - Some time later, Richard goes to check on the compass and it's gone.   In it's place there is a note that says "Your Leader has it and will return it to you"

Point C - Some time later in 1954 Locke walks into Camp and Gives him the compass


Point D - Time passes, Richard has held on to the compass since Locke gave it to him, he finds Lock at the plane and bandages his leg.   Richard remembers Point c and says (Take this compass and give it to me)

Lock then travels back in time to Point C and gives Richard the Compass, Richard remembers the note and thinks this could be a trick by Locke, but may think he's the leader.  Richards reaction seems one of genuine disbelief, though he could be playing it safe, though in a narrative we are usu. given a hint at a character's (here Alpert's) wink wink nudge nudge in the form of an aside of some sort...

Lock then travels back further in time to Point B and steals the compass and leaves a note to fool Richard.This we've seen no evidence of, though that hardly means it is not probable...

Lock then travels back to the present time.   He runs into Richard and says...by the way...Here is your compass.    Richard, having remembered giving the compass to Lock at the Plane takes it back.   The compass lives happily ever after in Richard's possession.


Not that I think the writers will go to this much trouble, but the paradox can be avoided.   This scenario would mean that Locke manipulated the whole thing.



This seems to rely on two instances of deceit/trickery if  I am not completely mistaken...though paradox kink it does avoid I agree.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 10:29:58 AM by Staggerlee »
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion.

F. Bacon

Offline Thomas

  • Background Extra
  • *
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2009, 10:59:06 AM »


Just for fun...Here's a way to get around the Compass Paradox  -- I'll lay out the events in order in the continous timeline.

Point A -  Richard gets the compass (maybe he buys it, maybe Jacob gives it to him) He thinks it's important so he put's it in a safe place.

Point B - Some time later, Richard goes to check on the compass and it's gone.   In it's place there is a note that says "Your Leader has it and will return it to you"

Point C - Some time later in 1954 Locke walks into Camp and Gives him the compass


Point D - Time passes, Richard has held on to the compass since Locke gave it to him, he finds Lock at the plane and bandages his leg.   Richard remembers Point c and says (Take this compass and give it to me)

Lock then travels back in time to Point C and gives Richard the Compass, Richard remembers the note and thinks this could be a trick by Locke, but may think he's the leader.  Richards reaction seems one of genuine disbelief, though he could be playing it safe, though in a narrative we are usu. given a hint at a character's (here Alpert's) wink wink nudge nudge in the form of an aside of some sort...

Lock then travels back further in time to Point B and steals the compass and leaves a note to fool Richard.This we've seen no evidence of, though that hardly means it is not probable...

Lock then travels back to the present time.   He runs into Richard and says...by the way...Here is your compass.    Richard, having remembered giving the compass to Lock at the Plane takes it back.   The compass lives happily ever after in Richard's possession.


Not that I think the writers will go to this much trouble, but the paradox can be avoided.   This scenario would mean that Locke manipulated the whole thing.



This seems to rely on two instances of deceit/trickery if  I am not completely mistaken...though paradox kink it does avoid I agree.

Agreed.   I'm not putting this out as a theory of what I think will happen.   Just as possibility to avoid a paradox and the "two compasses" idea.   Anyone could take the compass from Richard and introduce it at the right time to keep the timeline right.    I'm just saying there could be a future point of interest where lock finds himself even earlier and actually sets himself up as leader.   

Offline Staggerlee

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1151
  • Karma does not announce itself, it just happens.
    • View Profile
    • In Praise of Shadows
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2009, 11:15:09 AM »


I like it in that it introduces the possibility of a different Locke than the one we have been given thus far...

I like a lot of the random conjecture tossed about around here in that somewhere in the morass is the single string that is this story "Lost".

Last week a few people said that "Jones" guy might be Widmore, most either didn't care or didn't believe, I do not recall my own reaction, but when that came about, Alpert saying
"Widmore" it was a big tipping of the boat...

Any and all theories are up for grabs, and reading them and keeping track is the fun, that is what I like about what you proposed, there is the slimmest possibility of some part being true, or it can lead to something that is...
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion.

F. Bacon

Offline Writers_Strike

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 865
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2009, 01:03:53 PM »
Richard has a compass from the blackrock days, or maybe he purchased one. Lets just say he bought it in 1950 for our discussion.

In 1954 Locke from the future gives Richard the same compass that is 50 years older. Richard now has a 4 year old compass and a 54 year compass.

Richard visits little boy Locke and tests him with the older compass, and keeps the newer one in his pocket or back at the island.

Locke is shot by Ethan and is fixed by future (from a time that Locke has not experienced yet) Richard who gives him the newer compass which is now 54 years old. Richard now only has the 104 year old compass that Locke gave him in 1954.

Locke travels back to give Richard his 54 year old compass he bought 4 years ago. He has 2 again, Lather rinse and repeat.

Edited for clarity.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 02:54:02 PM by Writers_Strike »

Offline BurkRoyer

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1820
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2009, 02:46:41 PM »
The problem with the above timeline (Alpert already had compass in '54, Locke gives him a duplicate, then Alpert gives it to Locke at the Beechcraft) is that matter cannot be created or destroyed [Conservation of Mass].  In '54 there are 2 compasses, and in the '90s there are none.

This is NOT a problem for me, though, because matter can be converted to energy or be created from energy.

TPTB are dancing around having multiple parallel universes and that's fine with me.  MPU would kill this show, but if time travel is introduced then MPU can be difficult to avoid.

Just for fun...Here's a way to get around the Compass Paradox  -- I'll lay out the events in order in the continous timeline.

Point A -  Richard gets the compass (maybe he buys it, maybe Jacob gives it to him) He thinks it's important so he put's it in a safe place.

Point B - Some time later, Richard goes to check on the compass and it's gone.   In it's place there is a note that says "Your Leader has it and will return it to you"

Point C - Some time later in 1954 Locke walks into Camp and Gives him the compass


Point D - Time passes, Richard has held on to the compass since Locke gave it to him, he finds Lock at the plane and bandages his leg.   Richard remembers Point c and says (Take this compass and give it to me)

Lock then travels back in time to Point C and gives Richard the Compass, Richard remembers the note and thinks this could be a trick by Locke, but may think he's the leader.

Lock then travels back further in time to Point B and steals the compass and leaves a note to fool Richard.

Point E - Lock then travels back to the present time.   He runs into Richard and says...by the way...Here is your compass.    Richard, having remembered giving the compass to Lock at the Plane takes it back.   The compass lives happily ever after in Richard's possession.


Not that I think the writers will go to this much trouble, but the paradox can be avoided.   This scenario would mean that Locke manipulated the whole thing.


Sorry, but this doesn't work.  I drew it on paper and there is a closed loop between Point C and D. 

Time path of the compass per example above...
                                              
--->A---->B       C---->D      E--->
                \       /\      /       /\
                  \       \__/         /
                    \___________/

Where does the compass in points C and D come from?

Offline Mrs Hume

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 3556
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2009, 03:03:34 PM »
The problem with the above timeline (Alpert already had compass in '54, Locke gives him a duplicate, then Alpert gives it to Locke at the Beechcraft) is that matter cannot be created or destroyed [Conservation of Mass].  In '54 there are 2 compasses, and in the '90s there are none.

This is NOT a problem for me, though, because matter can be converted to energy or be created from energy.

TPTB are dancing around having multiple parallel universes and that's fine with me.  MPU would kill this show, but if time travel is introduced then MPU can be difficult to avoid.

Just for fun...Here's a way to get around the Compass Paradox  -- I'll lay out the events in order in the continous timeline.

Point A -  Richard gets the compass (maybe he buys it, maybe Jacob gives it to him) He thinks it's important so he put's it in a safe place.

Point B - Some time later, Richard goes to check on the compass and it's gone.   In it's place there is a note that says "Your Leader has it and will return it to you"

Point C - Some time later in 1954 Locke walks into Camp and Gives him the compass


Point D - Time passes, Richard has held on to the compass since Locke gave it to him, he finds Lock at the plane and bandages his leg.   Richard remembers Point c and says (Take this compass and give it to me)

Lock then travels back in time to Point C and gives Richard the Compass, Richard remembers the note and thinks this could be a trick by Locke, but may think he's the leader.

Lock then travels back further in time to Point B and steals the compass and leaves a note to fool Richard.

Point E - Lock then travels back to the present time.   He runs into Richard and says...by the way...Here is your compass.    Richard, having remembered giving the compass to Lock at the Plane takes it back.   The compass lives happily ever after in Richard's possession.


Not that I think the writers will go to this much trouble, but the paradox can be avoided.   This scenario would mean that Locke manipulated the whole thing.


Sorry, but this doesn't work.  I drew it on paper and there is a closed loop between Point C and D. 

Time path of the compass per example above...
                                              
--->A---->B       C---->D      E--->
                \       /\      /       /\
                  \       \__/         /
                    \___________/

Where does the compass in points C and D come from?

See! Now that is something I can relate to. I am more visual when it comes to stuff so I have to do the same thing with this time travel issue. Diagrams! 

Offline Writers_Strike

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 865
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2009, 03:16:38 PM »
This is a visual of my above post.
In 1949 Richard has 0 compasses. Buys 1 in 1950. He has 1 in 1954 until Locke gives him the same compass that is now 50 years older, Richard now has 2. He has 2 when he test young Locke. He has 2 when he fixes Locke's leg, he gives Locke the 54 year old compass, keeping the 104 year old compass. Richard now has 1 compass. Locke time travels to 1954 and gives Richard the 54 year old compass.

0---1---1,2---2---2,1---|
                                  |
             ^___________/

No where can I or anyone else explain the chicken and egg paradox that takes place here. Time travel presents too many problems.

Offline Mrs Hume

  • DHARMA Work Man (or Woman)
  • *****
  • Posts: 3556
    • View Profile
Re: Compass Paradox
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2009, 03:27:32 PM »
ok, maybe you can help me. the only thing i DON'T understand is what is the big deal, Richard doesn't recognize the compass anyway. it doesn't convince him. what made him stop and listen was when locke said, Jacob sent me. I think the compass is only important and comes into play when Richard uses it to ask locke what was his during the test. if it was his (L)for a little while in the future he (L)will pick the compass (because what happens happens right) so he picks the compass.  Ok. so that is my take on the whole compass deal. the reason why richard wasn't happy is because he picked the knife over the book. but Locke did have his knife on him at the time richard and locke were speaking. he didn't and who knows if he ever will have the book of rules. or whatever. he never got that far because he died. but richard doesn't know that in 1956.

that's my story and im sticking to it. lol