Author Topic: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations  (Read 2730 times)

Offline T Mack

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As discussed at length before and discredited by many, we now have confirmation of the following:


The Doc washed up on shore dead with his throat slit on the island BEFORE his throat was slashed on the boat.  Keamy's buddy received the Morse code from Daniel WAAAYYY after he sent it and the guy told them, "no the doctor is alive on the boat".  So the doctor was both alive and dead, in two separate threads of time.  Desmond was also operating in two separate threads of time (parallel universes or just threads of time?) but only as an out of body experience, not as two separate beings located in two separate moments in time.  Because the doctor is dead in the future, this avoids the paradox of having two living people in two separate places at once.  The dead body can't 'do anything' but be dead so there is no consequence of having the two bodies in two separate palaces.  But if they were both alive in both threads of time, this would be evidence of multiple parallel universes.

Time traveling is going on.  Sure Desmond 'mind traveled' ( a cop out if you ask me, but ok), but Alpert is clearly time traveling.  He is alive in the 1950's trying to recruit Locke as a young child, and again as a teenager to come work at Mittelos Biosicence.  Alpert, the ageless wonder, is able to time hop and affect events (or at least try to) in other timelines.  Why he does not age is still a mystery.  He clearly knows that Locke will arrive on the island in the future and is special and is trying to guide his life journey.  His test to Locke, which object to pick up? was also a mystery.  Which one was the correct object to pick up?  It's not clear but I think it may have been the "Book of Laws".  The camera panned to that book twice.

Does the Universe really always course correct?  I'm not sure it does.  Alpert is clearly trying to manipulate events for the future by going back to the past and changing things.  Who said here on this board that things in the past or future can't be changed?  That's exactly what he was trying to do, change John Locke's life path to course correct for him to be on that island (wayyy before he actually ended up on it by the way).  It didn't work the way Alpert wanted to however, but Locke still arrived on the island, just 20-30 years later than was intended.


Those who die on the island are not necessarily completely dead.  They have spirits which 'live on' because their work is 'not done'.  We see Horace Goodspeed as evidence of this.  This must be the source of the whispers, all of those who have died (many members of the Dharma Initiative for instance) have died and are "watching" the events unfold (Cindy to Jack: "We're here to watch") but are powerless to do anything about them.  I believe Claire is also now a 'watcher'.

The 'undead', like Goodspeed (and I would even venture to guess Claire), are 'unstuck in time'.  'Only fools are enslaved by time and space'.  Time looping is evident here: Goodspeed clearly loops through several scenarios of speaking to Locke while cutting down the tree for the cabin, cutting the tree down several times and repeating himself "hello there" to Locke in several looped versions of time that John was experiencing.  Locke was seeing Goodspeed build the cabin 'before' it was even built.  Locke tripped back to the past to get his instructions from Goodspeed (where to find the document that showed where the cabin was, in Goodspeed's pocket).  This was the weirdest and coolest part of the show IMO.

Goodspeed's nose is bleeding, evidence of his time hopping, but can it kill him? He is already dead.  Maybe until Goodspeed's work is done (showing John how to find the cabin) -and therefore save the island- can his spirit rest and stop time looping and tripping, he can now be truly dead.  What is Claire's 'purpose' then?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2008, 11:53:56 AM by T Mack »

Offline Survivor815

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2008, 11:52:12 AM »
I agree, there has to be some kind of time travel for the doctor to be dead on the island while he is still alive on the boat...although I am confused as to how this is possible.  ???  And Horace looping like that was freaky! He kept cutting down the same tree and saying "hello there" to Locke over and over.

Offline rhythm

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2008, 12:04:16 PM »
As discussed at length before and discredited by many, we now have confirmation of the following:


The Doc washed up on shore dead with his throat slit on the island BEFORE his throat was slashed on the boat.  Keamy's buddy received the Morse code from Daniel WAAAYYY after he sent it and the guy told them, "no the doctor is alive on the boat".  So the doctor was both alive and dead, in two separate threads of time. 

One could also suggest that when the doctor's body was dropped into the ocean, it floated away toward the wrong baring into the worm hole which caused his body to wash upon the shore before the event happend.  Not necessarily a parallel universe or intentional time travel.  Just a side effect of the worm hole.

Alpert is clearly time traveling.  He is alive in the 1950's trying to recruit Locke as a young child, and again as a teenager to come work at Mittelos Biosicence. 
Or is it possible Alpert is not time traveling and that the island keeps him young?  I know that not everyone followed the Lost Experience, but it was suggest that Dharma was able to extend life...in fact, the game goes on to suggest that Alvar Hanso (the founder of Dharma I believe...) is far older than what he claims.  Who is to say this is not the same for Richard?

Those who die on the island are not necessarily completely dead.  They have spirits which 'live on' because their work is 'not done'.  We see Horace Goodspeed as evidence of this.  This must be the source of the whispers, all of those who have died (many members of the Dharma Initiative for instance) have died and are "watching" the events unfold (Cindy to Jack: "We're here to watch") but are powerless to do anything about them.  I believe Claire is also now a 'watcher'.

The 'undead', like Goodspeed (and I would even venture to guess Claire), are 'unstuck in time'.  'Only fools are enslaved by time and space'.  Time looping is evident here: Goodspeed clearly loops through several scenarios of speaking to Locke while cutting down the tree for the cabin, cutting the tree down several times and repeating himself "hello there" to Locke in several looped versions of time that John was experiencing.  Locke was seeing Goodspeed build the cabin 'before' it was even built.  Locke tripped back to the past to get his instructions from Goodspeed (where to find the document that showed where the cabin was, in Goodspeed's pocket).  This was the weirdest and coolest part of the show IMO.

Goodspeed's nose is bleeding, evidence of his time hopping, but can it kill him? He is already dead.  Maybe until Goodspeed's work is done (showing John how to find the cabin) -and therefore save the island- can his spirit rest and stop time looping and tripping, he can now be truly dead.  What is Claire's 'purpose' then?


Horace "undead"?!  I'm sorry...I thought Locke was dreaming the event with Horace...in fact when he wakes up Ben says "I used to have dreams".... 

Offline T Mack

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2008, 12:10:18 PM »
 
Quote
I'm sorry...I thought Locke was dreaming the event with Horace...in fact when he wakes up Ben says "I used to have dreams".... 
Dreams on the island aren't necessarily 'dreams' as we know them...they are prophecy, the real events, just seen in another thread of time...that's why they seem like dreams, they are happening in another event horizon. "Dreams" are the only way some people can visualize them.  The show is not to be taken literally when speaking of 'dreams' and other pseudo-scientific events.  The word 'dream' is only to have those of us who are not able to express these thoughts be able to describe them in our earthly terms.

Offline T Mack

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2008, 12:13:55 PM »
Quote
The Doc washed up on shore dead with his throat slit on the island BEFORE his throat was slashed on the boat.  Keamy's buddy received the Morse code from Daniel WAAAYYY after he sent it and the guy told them, "no the doctor is alive on the boat".  So the doctor was both alive and dead, in two separate threads of time.
 

Quote
One could also suggest that when the doctor's body was dropped into the ocean, it floated away toward the wrong baring into the worm hole which caused his body to wash upon the shore before the event happened.  Not necessarily a parallel universe or intentional time travel.  Just a side effect of the worm hole.

But that is in effect, time travel.  Two timelines were shown, one in the future and one in the past- two bodies were seen in both of those timelines.  Sure, Marty McFly did  not arrive in his time traveling Lamborghini to change the future, but the dead body traveled through time and re-appeared in the future.

Offline rhythm

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2008, 12:16:07 PM »
  Dreams on the island aren't necessarily 'dreams' as we know them...they are prophecy, the real events, just seen in another thread of time...

Can you give me an example of when this has happend with anyone other than Desmond?

Offline Lost-N-Detroit

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2008, 12:17:32 PM »
Horace "undead"?!  I'm sorry...I thought Locke was dreaming the event with Horace...in fact when he wakes up Ben says "I used to have dreams".... 
[/quote]

I thought Ben was mind tripping at that point by the way he was jolted awake with his eyes open before that comment.

Offline Rebel 3:16

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2008, 12:23:35 PM »
Eko had a very similar experience when following Yemi to the Pearl station didnt he, he dreamt it?
Also when he 'saw' Anna Lucia, Locke in his smoke tent, and Boone when he went 'tripping' all saw 'visions'.

Offline T Mack

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2008, 12:29:16 PM »
Dreams (as prophecy):

Boone dreamed that Shannon was going to die- she did.
Eko's dreams about Yemi.
Locke dreamed and saw Yemi, who showed him the way to the station.
Jack 'dreamed' he saw Christian, but he really did see him.
Claire 'dreamed' that Locke told her she would give up the baby, and she did.  Locke to Claire in the dream:  "Now we will all pay for your mistake".
Charlie 'dreaming' about Claire on the beach- not sure what that trippy dream meant though, although it did show the Nigerian drug plane crashing.


So many other examples I can't even remember them all.

Offline rhythm

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2008, 12:35:18 PM »
Dreams (as prophecy):

Boone dreamed that Shannon was going to die- she did.
Eko's dreams about Yemi.
Locke dreamed and saw Yemi, who showed him the way to the station.
Jack 'dreamed' he saw Christian, but he really did see him.
Claire 'dreamed' that Locke told her she would give up the baby, and she did.  Locke to Claire in the dream:  "Now we will all pay for your mistake".
Charlie 'dreaming' about Claire on the beach- not sure what that trippy dream meant though, although it did show the Nigerian drug plane crashing.


So many other examples I can't even remember them all.

No, I mean give me an example when someone had a "dream" and then the actual event took place exactly as it was dreamed.  I would liketo have a reason to believe that Horace is not actually dead and is unstuck as you suggest.  Or is this just your opinion?

Offline T Mack

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2008, 12:51:20 PM »
I think the degree to which the person is 'in tune' with the island or has special abilities (i.e. Walt, or Locke) is a direct correlation as to the accuracy of the dream or prophecy.  This is just my opinion, I don't know anymore than anyone else on here, of course.  Boone dreamed Shannon died, that part was right, but in how she died he got it wrong.  The dream was partially correct.  Locke's dreams have almost all been exactly correct.  Walt actually caused events to happen as he willed them (wanted them) to.  Walt also "appeared in places he wasn't supposed to" (time traveled or teleported).

Offline rhythm

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2008, 01:14:17 PM »
Oh ok.  It's just the way you worded it...made it seem like there was something I missed.  I'm a critical reader so I'll pick everything apart....

Offline T Mack

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2008, 01:18:53 PM »
I'm a critical reader so I'll pick everything apart....
Welcome to my world...LOL.

Offline blueeyed2200

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2008, 02:37:38 PM »
I guess I am just a little puzzled as to how this time-jumping thing works, which I am sure everyone is.  How is it that BOTH of Keamy's last two trips to the island (the first one when he killed Rousseau and co. and the second one at the end of last night's epi) occurred AFTER the doc washed up on shore?? I am so confused . . 
And I guess my next big question is . . if the freighter people are in fact time traveling back and forth between the island and the boat, is this something that they are doing on purpose and traveling to a certain time period each time by their own doing??  Or is it something that they have no control over where they end up or what time they are in when they get there??  I mean, it seems to me that Ben had control over where he ended up when he traveled to Iraq. 

 It also seemed to me that the captain was trying to warn Keamy of what would happen to him if he continued to time travel.  I mean he started to tell him about the chick that threw herself off the boat and Minkowski,  but you noticed that he didn't even give it a second thought.  Maybe that will come into play later since Keamy isn't aware of the whole "u need a constant to space travel and live" concept.   Maybe we will all get lucky and Keamy will meet his demise that way and we won't have to worry about him anymore, but that is probably doubtful.   

Let me know what you guys think . .

Offline DirtyMaggieMae

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Re: The Doc died 'before' he was killed and other confirmations
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2008, 03:17:32 PM »
Man, I wish I was charting days and events for this season.  I like the idea that the dead body didn't follow the direction that Faraday stressed, therefore (like the rocket) hitting some sort of time bubble or shift.  But... I'd like to know... how many island days had gone by before Jack heard from Sayid after the helicopter took them away?  I wonder if that time matches up with the discovery of the dead doctor and the actual lapse from when he dies?