"I See You've Been Getting More Sun" WTF?

[MangoBingo]

Ben killed Nadia and Widmore's agent was tailing Ben.
Why would Widmore kill Nadia? To know from Sayid where the island is? Sayid doesn't know.
Ben's reason to kill Nadia could be to get Sayid to believe Widmore did it, so Sayid will kill Penny.

I also think that Ben killed Nadia, but that Widmore's agent was in Tikrit to find out whom did it - not necessarily expecting to find Ben.

I think that the London scene was non-sequential. I've no reason to believe this, other than Ben's hairstyle being different. It's just intuition on my part. My timeline would be:

01. Ben-slightly-in-the-future makes a planned trip through time to kill Nadia;

02. Widmore deploys an agent to Iraq, to find Nadia's killer as they may be linked to the island he's attempting to locate again. Widmore doesn't expect Ben himself to be the killer;

03. Ben-slightly-in-the-future visits Widmore to taunt him;

04. Ben-slightly-in-the-future returns from whence he came;

05. Ben-a-lot-in-the-future appears in Tunisia. He has evidently left in a hurry as he is wounded and dressed inappropriately;

06. Ben-a-lot-in-the-future recruits Sayid

07. Ben-a-lot-in-the-future returns from whence he came;

08. Ben-a-lot-in-the-future survives an assasination attempt from Sayid that wounds his arm. Sayid wounds him whilst attempting to stop Ben travelling back in time.

Something like that.

[T Mack]

[/quote]When Charles said to him you have gotten some color lately, Ben stated  your rock is lovely this time of year. He never refereed to being in the middle east.  [/quote] Rock = Iraq.

[LostinLock]

I am not quite so sure that Nadia was killed by either Ben or Charles.  Remember there are other things going on and again Ben could be providing circumstantial evidence, the picture of Bakir in LA, and using that to get to Sayid.

Bakir didn't appear to know how Widmore or Ben was.  He asked him why he was following him.  And if you recall when Sayid attacked Ben he asked him why they were following him.  Shock came to his face when he saw Ben.  

So......... Is is possible since Nadia had been a prisoner in Tikrit and Sayid had been in the Army that their own country men or other factions might be after them.

Ben once again manipulates situations to get Sayid to work for him.  Do we really know that Bakir worked for Charles Widmore?  Just because Ben said it doesn't mean it is true.

Additionally when Ben enters Charles room, it is apparent that Charles had not been updated on his whereabouts.  They didn't discuss the small matters of Sayid or being in Iraq or Tunisia.  Ben went there with a message and it was an eye for an eye.  Charles changed the rules, whatever they are and now Ben was telling him that he was going to do the same.

Yes, there is more to these two than meets the eyes, and it was interesting that Charles is having Nightmares....again.   What does that refer to?

[LostinLock]

When Charles said to him you have gotten some color lately, Ben stated  your rock is lovely this time of year. He never refereed to being in the middle east.  [/quote] Rock = Iraq.
[/quote]

There was no discussion about the middle east.... Rock = Island.... Widmore does not own the middle east and the conversation was about the island.

[LostAndSeek]

No, it's Iraq. This is Ben's way of telling Charles that he (Ben) was responsible for Bakir's death.

And of course, the use of the word Boy is derogatory. Charles is an arrogant old bastard as we've seen time and again.

I doubt that Widmore killed Nadia because we just don't have a motive for that. I'm not sure if Ben did, but it's clear Ben used her death to manipulate Sayid.

[Austruck]

Sometimes a rock is a term used to describe an island. They are in England, which is an island. I was sure that was all he meant.

Also, I assumed Charles's remark about him getting more sun couldn't be entirely serious or based on Charles actually seeing more color on Ben's face. Ben was standing there bathed in moonlight -- and you can't see something like a tan in moonlight. (Plus, Ben didn't seem to have any more color to his face than he usually does.)

I assumed it was a droll way of saying, "I see you're getting out more."

[Lion of Atreides]

Iraq vs. Your Rock.  I rewatched the scene, and tho its not definitively one or the other, I think we can deduce the only plausible answer.  Ben would want to rub it in that it was he who had taken out Widmore's man Ishmael in Tikrit.  Further, to say 'your rock', Ben would have to be tacitly in agreement with Widmore's contention that the island is his, when we know that Ben is diametrically opposed to that notion. Finally, it sounds more ironic, and more like something Ben would say, to imply that a hellhole in Iraq happens to be lovely; especially since we know that the island is lovely every season of the year.

That is why my vote is for Ben saying 'Iraq is lovely this time of year'.

[LostinLock]

I had three other people watch the episode again....

Read the transcript here....http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Shape_of_Things_to_Come_transcript

I listened again.... He did say Iraq....now I can move on

[Lion of Atreides]

Gladly.  Any theories, then, on why Widmore has been having nightmares lately?

[LostinLock]

Gladly.  Any theories, then, on why Widmore has been having nightmares lately?

I am sorry to say I am not sure what would keep that man up at night.  Perhaps the painting of the Black rock next to his bed or to much scotch. 

I reserve a space here to come back to this question when I have more information.  Right now I could blow a bunch of smoke out of my derriere, but that is not my style.

[Lion of Atreides]

Aw, but wild speculation is so damned fun!  I think it's an homage to Howard Hughes - Widmore's been increasingly haunted by germs since '96, when he could not bring himself to touch the water faucet after washing his hand. As we all know, those bidding paddles at Sotheby's are absolutely filthy.

[LostAndSeek]

Well, maybe, but he turned the faucet on all right....

[LouE68]

Gladly.  Any theories, then, on why Widmore has been having nightmares lately?

maybe he recieved the news of Alex death, knowing the shape of things to come, knowing he changed the rules of the game, knowing Ben would come after Pen...didnt he say something about he had been expecting him?

[Lion of Atreides]

Well, maybe, but he turned the faucet on all right....

It's one thing to turn it one with your hand, as you're soon to wash away any germs picked up in doing so, but another to touch it afterwards with your just-sanitized hands.

maybe he recieved the news of Alex death, knowing the shape of things to come, knowing he changed the rules of the game, knowing Ben would come after Pen...didnt he say something about he had been expecting him?

Widmore wouldn't be upset to the point of nightmares by Alex's death, nor the as-expected continuation of his long-running conflict with Ben.  And in Widmore's mind, he didn't break any rules, as Ben himself had disavowed Alex as his daughter, opening the way for Keamey to execute her.  He then showed surprise when Ben mentions the reason for his visit was to announce he's going to kill Penny, so that couldn't have been a worry previously.   In saying he'd been expecting Ben, this shows that, at the very least, he knows by that point in 2005 that his earlier freighter gambit had failed, Alex had been killed, yet Ben had survived.  Perhaps Keamey survived long enough to communicate an update back to Widmore, or perhaps it had been Daniel, Charlotte, or Gault.

[LouE68]

Well, maybe, but he turned the faucet on all right....

It's one thing to turn it one with your hand, as you're soon to wash away any germs picked up in doing so, but another to touch it afterwards with your just-sanitized hands.

maybe he recieved the news of Alex death, knowing the shape of things to come, knowing he changed the rules of the game, knowing Ben would come after Pen...didnt he say something about he had been expecting him?

Widmore wouldn't be upset to the point of nightmares by Alex's death, nor the as-expected continuation of his long-running conflict with Ben.  And in Widmore's mind, he didn't break any rules, as Ben himself had disavowed Alex as his daughter, opening the way for Keamey to execute her.  He then showed surprise when Ben mentions the reason for his visit was to announce he's going to kill Penny, so that couldn't have been a worry previously.   In saying he'd been expecting Ben, this shows that, at the very least, he knows by that point in 2005 that his earlier freighter gambit had failed, Alex had been killed, yet Ben had survived.  Perhaps Keamey survived long enough to communicate an update back to Widmore, or perhaps it had been Daniel, Charlotte, or Gault.

he's upset of Alex death, because he knows Penny will be a target of Ben's...he knows he crossed the line...he doesnt have to show his fear, only that he's been having nightmares...he still calls Ben boy...he's used to a certain power, overbearing if you will...but either way.
you see it one way, I see it another...time will tell....