Author Topic: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today  (Read 11532 times)

Offline jugdish

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2008, 10:00:17 PM »
I can't understand why this is such a huge debate.  They've made it clear that time can be affected when attempting to leave or approach the island and the Orchid video made it clear that they were doing experiments involving teleportation and that time can be affected during that process.  So why isn't it obvious that Ben teleported and needed to double check the time to make sure that he didn't screw something up?  Sounds simple enough to me! (Especially when you consider that we all must be out of our minds to be this involved in this discussion!  ;D )

On a side note, maybe Dr. Candle/ Halliwax or whatever his name is accidentally teleported his left arm somewhere!  I've gotten careless with power tools a couple of times myself and I know how quickly accidents can happen! Just ask the nice nurses at the ER!  :-[

I can agree with every word you posted. Perfectly stated, even the part about power tools. My disagreement with people is when they try to go farther than you said. I do not see the evidence in the show to support that jump

Offline Creflo

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #76 on: April 27, 2008, 03:31:45 PM »
Of course it has been and will continue to be a huge debate . . . probably the most important debate regarding this show.  If there is a deliberate method of time travel existing on The Island, it helps to explain innumerable concepts integral to the show:

- Same-age Richard Alpert recruits a prepubescent Ben
- Ben always seems to know where to be and what to do/say...confident in his own safety (until threatened by the forces of fellow time-lord Widmore).
- Operatives (oh no, better call them coincidences!) are positioned in the past to manipulate the Losties before the ill-fated flight
- The Island has a value so extreme that deaths and huge outlays of cash are put forth in the battle for control
- What Ben "can do"
- People who are dead in the past reappear in the present and future
- The friggin cave door behind the secret metal door is covered with mystical glyphs!  It's unlikely that there's a joystick that pilots Smokey in there.

These concepts are only the ones I can pull up offhand.  There are SO many others that are easily explained by either Ben time-travelling physically or by Desmond going back to the mind of his younger self.  These concepts are difficult to explain without some sort of time travel.

Quote
The producers made the rules of time travel clear.  That only consciousnesses can time travel and that you can't change the future.

This is NOT what the producers have said, at least not in anything I've read or listened to.  They only stated that they take great pains to avoid paradox.



As for the folks who continue to deny time travel in the show, I'm not going to say those people are foolish or blind.  I'm just saying that The Temple is "not for them" and they should stick with Jack and his Team of Science.   ;)

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #77 on: April 27, 2008, 05:36:17 PM »
I don't see how these are proof of time travel.  Alternative, simpler explanations exist.

- Same-age Richard Alpert recruits a prepubescent Ben
Explained by the island's healing properties & Dharma's anti-aging experiments, butressed by Ben's crack in the tent about Richard never having a birthday. I.e. he is indeed ~200 years old.

- Ben always seems to know where to be and what to do/say...confident in his own safety (until threatened by the forces of fellow time-lord Widmore).
Like any charlatan, snake-oil salesman, and psychic (e.g. John Edward on Crossing Over), Ben is a master manipulator able to strategize several moves ahead.

- Operatives (oh no, better call them coincidences!) are positioned in the past to manipulate the Losties before the ill-fated flight
That these time police manipulated the Losties onto Flight 815 doesn't mean they had to time travel to do so.  Rather, they could have been merely implementing a plan, within a single timeline.

- The Island has a value so extreme that deaths and huge outlays of cash are put forth in the battle for control
- What Ben "can do"
- The friggin cave door behind the secret metal door is covered with mystical glyphs!  It's unlikely that there's a joystick that pilots Smokey in there.
Which doesn't require time travel to be so.

- People who are dead in the past reappear in the present and future
Explained by Smokey's ability to read minds, as seen with Juliet in Left Behind, and then create physical manifestations of those memories.

I'm with TPTB.  Time travelling is a crutch, diminishing the consequences of any/all previous actions.  The audience would lost interest, as the story would merely become the latest whims of the writers.  That's why I think it's a much smarter approach to make teleportation possible, if dangerous, with time travel as a harmful side effect that is to be avoided at all costs (as shown by Ben's relief to find he hadn't time travelled in this week's episode). 

Offline jugdish

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2008, 08:14:29 PM »
DOC JENSEN: Another popular theory making the rounds is that we're dealing with alternate realities. For example, there are people who think the flash-forwards are merely possible future scenarios, not written in stone.

CARLTON CUSE: We want people to believe in the stakes of the show. The problem with alternative realities is that you never know when the rug is going to be pulled out from under you. We want the audience to believe that the jeopardy is real. Postulating alternative realities would be an escape valve that would be damaging that as a narrative value.

DAMON LINDELOF: You can get away with it in Heroes, where there is an apocalyptic future you want to avoid. But we're doing the opposite. We want to work toward a future where Jack is absolutely miserable and wants to go back to the Island. Everything we present to the audience has to be factual.

CUSE: We want the audience to believe that is THE future. We don't want people thinking, ''Well, since there are five iterations of this, I'm not going to invest in what's happening to the characters.''

LINDELOF: We're not going to tell you that we're against bending the time-space continuum. We are very for it. Carlton and I are PRO time-space continuum bending! But we're ANTI-paradox. Paradox creates issues. In Heroes, Masi Oka's character travels back from the future to say, ''You must prevent New York from being destroyed.'' But if they prevent New York from being destroyed, Masi Oka can never travel back from the future to warn you, because Future Hiro no longer exists. Right? So when we start having those conversations at Lost, we go, ''This show is already confusing enough as it is.'' To actually have characters traveling through time has to be handled very deftly.

CUSE: For example, the fifth episode of the season [airing next week] deals with time travel and operates in different time periods. It was a tough story to break. But we adhere to our rule: no paradox.

Here is the complete discussion on MPU. I know this thread is about time travel but I believe much of it if realative to the discussion.

We all know there is some kind of time issue on lost, Desmond episodes have proven it. Where I come into disagreement with people is that they try to explain everthing with time travel. It just is not gong to be that big a part of the show. IMHO.

To me the key is NO PARADOX. PEople traveling to the future and coming back causes a paradox.

I like what others have been saying, Time is screwed with, some time may be "lost" but that does not mean jumping to the future and past to me.

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2008, 10:17:23 PM »
Hear, hear. Although at one point I was hoping MPUs would be utilized, as they're on the edge of theoretical physics currently (and who doesn't love an underdog?), I came to realize how impossible they'd be from a storytelling standpoint.  The same problem exists with Time Travel.  Teleportation, if used sparingly and with consequences, doesn't create any paradoxes, so is kosher.

Offline LouE68

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2008, 10:20:28 PM »
Hear, hear. Although at one point I was hoping MPUs would be utilized, as they're on the edge of theoretical physics currently (and who doesn't love an underdog?), I came to realize how impossible they'd be from a storytelling standpoint.  The same problem exists with Time Travel.  Teleportation, if used sparingly and with consequences, doesn't create any paradoxes, so is kosher.
and it's been the underdog for what? 40 years? come on think out of the vortex people...

Offline Staggerlee

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2008, 11:26:33 PM »
I can't understand why this is such a huge debate.  They've made it clear that time can be affected when attempting to leave or approach the island and the Orchid video made it clear that they were doing experiments involving teleportation and that time can be affected during that process.  So why isn't it obvious that Ben teleported and needed to double check the time to make sure that he didn't screw something up?  Sounds simple enough to me! (Especially when you consider that we all must be out of our minds to be this involved in this discussion!  ;D )

On a side note, maybe Dr. Candle/ Halliwax or whatever his name is accidentally teleported his left arm somewhere!  I've gotten careless with power tools a couple of times myself and I know how quickly accidents can happen! Just ask the nice nurses at the ER!  :-[

I can agree with every word you posted. Perfectly stated, even the part about power tools. My disagreement with people is when they try to go farther than you said. I do not see the evidence in the show to support that jump

this is a safe place to be in the discussion until further evidence is proffered up pointing either direction...
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion.

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Offline Creflo

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #82 on: April 28, 2008, 01:31:45 PM »
Quote
We all know there is some kind of time issue on lost, Desmond episodes have proven it. Where I come into disagreement with people is that they try to explain everthing with time travel. It just is not gong to be that big a part of the show. IMHO.

Yes.  This is certainly a safe fence rail to sit on . . . until such time as even more is revealed about the exact nature of the "time bending"

It's perfectly alright to change opinions based on further revelations during the show.

No time travel, but still believe in some time manipulation. people in the same place but at differnt times.

I am not even sure desmond traveled back in time. It very well could of been a lucid dream.


The Doc Jensen interview posted by Jug is one of the most important reveals by the producers so far.  I have scrutinized it numerous times, and my opinion is that it:

- confirms that there is indeed time travel
Quote
the fifth episode of the season [airing next week] deals with time travel

- minimizes paradox as it is harmful to storytelling

Quote
we're ANTI-paradox. Paradox creates issues.


Sure, it's a crutch to try to explain all of Lost's great facets with a catch-all time travel solution.  I am not of that camp.

What I will say is that time travel most certainly exists in the show and those folks who didn't believe it must surely now acknowledge that it's there.  Also, at least two characters have almost certainly been shown to have been traveling time in one form or another.

Because Ben has at least some control over when he initiates his travels and at least a vague idea of when and where he's headed, it makes him extremely powerful . . . and this concept is surely a big part of the show.

Offline T Mack

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #83 on: April 28, 2008, 07:24:11 PM »
Quote
Where I come into disagreement with people is that they try to explain everthing with time travel.
  And yet no one in this thread is trying to do that except you.  Perhaps you are having an argument with yourself?

Quote
It just is not gong to be that big a part of the show. IMHO.
Time travel, teleportation, mind travel or whatever the hell we are calling it today is a part of the show. In fact, it might be the reason why the island is so important and valuable to rich old men like Widmore and Paik.  It also might be the reason the events that we see unfolding on our screen are happening in the odd way they are.  To not see or realize this is missing a fundamental element of the show and to me really questions the ability of that viewer to understand the show properly. ;)

Offline Staggerlee

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2008, 10:09:43 PM »
Tis nothing more than a cool minor plot device, bending or whatever, the story is the people and the conflicts.
There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion.

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Offline LostGirlDeb

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2008, 09:24:30 PM »
and on another note........

  what about that puke?

  LOL :D

Same color as Juliet's drink that they gave her before boarding the submarine for her journey to the island.

Also I wanted to mention one thing.
Darlton also said in one of their podcasts that you can't listen to everything "they" say
Only the show tells the truth..... so quoting an article or an interview from them doesn't convince me at all
 
And as far as paradoxes go....didn't Desmond's "mind" traveling actually alter something in the future?




 

Offline T Mack

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2008, 11:12:47 PM »
and on another note........

  what about that puke?

  LOL :D

Same color as Juliet's drink that they gave her before boarding the submarine for her journey to the island.

Also I wanted to mention one thing.
Darlton also said in one of their podcasts that you can't listen to everything "they" say
Only the show tells the truth..... so quoting an article or an interview from them doesn't convince me at all
 
And as far as paradoxes go....didn't Desmond's "mind" traveling actually alter something in the future?

Indeed it did, however inconsequential.  I think the consequences of the paradox are when one meets oneself in another timeline, or you kill your grandfather, or something silly like that, which we know can't happen anyway.  I think people are getting caught up in 'degrees of believability', using things like paradoxes to explain away good reasoning.  In other words, we can still have time travel or whatever, as long as we don't create a paradox.  Things can be changed, but they must be inconsequential to the overall story. 

Ms. Hawking was right, the Universe does course correct, but only when it's absolutely necessary to do so.

Offline JBRam

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Re: All the anti- time travel theorists heads are spinning today
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2008, 07:44:09 PM »
Ben said to Sayid: "Go away. Once you let your grieve become anger it will never go away. I speak of experience." I guess Ben was talking about Alex. If he travelled from december 2004 to october 2005, he wouldn't have had the time to let his grieve become anger and to plan to kill Charles' daughter out of revenge. That's why I think it is a flash forward and not time travel.
Maybe teleportation has the same side effects as leaving the island in the wrong direction and your consciousness could end up in the wrong time and Ben asked the date to be sure not to need to contact his constant.
My thought was that he was talking about Annie, not Alex. However, either way is definitely possible.