Author Topic: Ben vs Widmore  (Read 14059 times)

Offline zeekloveslost

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 438
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2008, 10:39:10 AM »
Was it just me, or was Widmore not too upset about Penelope's impending murder?

I got the impression that even Charles Widmore did not know where Penny was, so that he wasn't too worried about Ben finding her first. Maybe I'm way off on that.

Offline opgelost

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1826
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2008, 11:11:15 AM »
Quote
Did you notice that during Ben and Charles scene their faces were half dark and half light.

We only saw Ben's right half and Charles' left half. Like it were two halfs of one face.

Offline Petey

  • Background Extra
  • *
  • Posts: 28
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 11:13:19 AM »
what i wanna know is, why cant ben kill widmore?

Because the island won't let him die?? Like Michael...

Just a thought.

Offline Suzanne4au2

  • DHARMA Scientist
  • ******
  • Posts: 8428
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2008, 11:19:36 AM »
I was wondering since Ben has Sayid doing all his killings for him- is he going to ask him to kill Penny and is that why they put Sayid and Desmond on the boat together? Because if he and Desmond became close that would make it harder to kill Penny.(if Desmond makes it off the island). Just a thought :)

Offline blueeyed2200

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2008, 12:18:27 PM »
I guess the part I didn't understand was why, if Widmore is trying to claim that the island was his first, does he not know where the island is??  Maybe grew up on the island with Ben when they were little, was related or indirectly related to the people who started Dharma,  was taken off of the island for some reason before the purge, maybe lost family members, friends at the island during the purge, and has been trying all his life to get back there and find it.  Meanwhile, Ben, knowing the powers of the island and was the main executor of the purge, can get back and forth on and off the island and can keep in touch with Widmore whenever he wants to.  This infuriates Widmore and motivates him to do what he does.  But why??  Just kind of a short undetailed rough theory. 

Offline mattac

  • Onlooker
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2008, 12:38:13 PM »
I guess the part I didn't understand was why, if Widmore is trying to claim that the island was his first, does he not know where the island is??

Even more confusing is that Widmore does (or did) know where the island is (or was). He sent the freighter there in 2001 and he knows the crew made contact with the island because he seemed to understand that Keamy had killed Alex. So when they meet in 2005, why can Ben say with so much confidence that Widmore will never find the island when he knows Widmore had the location of the island in 2001? Can the island change its location? Or does knowing the physical coordinates not necessarily help one "find" the island?

Offline lostandfree

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 476
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2008, 01:41:52 PM »
I guess the part I didn't understand was why, if Widmore is trying to claim that the island was his first, does he not know where the island is??

Even more confusing is that Widmore does (or did) know where the island is (or was). He sent the freighter there in 2001 and he knows the crew made contact with the island because he seemed to understand that Keamy had killed Alex. So when they meet in 2005, why can Ben say with so much confidence that Widmore will never find the island when he knows Widmore had the location of the island in 2001? Can the island change its location? Or does knowing the physical coordinates not necessarily help one "find" the island?

I think you mean 2004

Offline JBRam

  • Island Native
  • *
  • Posts: 30614
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2008, 03:22:47 PM »
As to why Ben "can't" kill Widmore, I thought of this two ways:

Ben seems quite obsessed with not actually literally committing murder (but rather arranging for someone else to do it for him).  That seems to be his dividing line between "the good people", "innocents" and everyone else:

Maybe, but when Ben confronted Widmore at the end of the episode, he accuses him of killing Alex as though Widmore was the one that actually pulled the trigger (even though we saw it was obviously Widmore's hired gun Keamy). So in that sense it didn't seem to matter to Ben that there was one level of separation between Widmore and Alex's death. It seems like from Ben's perspective--Widmore is responsible for Keamy, Keamy killed Alex, so Widmore is responsible for Alex's murder.


The other way to look at it is that the Island "won't let" Widmore die the same way that it wouldn't let Michael die until it was through with him.  So Ben couldn't kill him even if he wanted to because the Island would interfere.

This sounds right to me. There's a reason why TPTB showed us Michael's failed suicide attempts before the events of this episode--it establishes that the island has some sort of metaphysical force or will that cannot be disobeyed. So indeed maybe Ben literally cannot kill Widmore, a fact that both he and Widmore seemed to know.

It makes me wonder if Ben similarly thought that Keamy would be unable to kill Alex. It struck me as odd that he was willing to bluff with his daughter's life like that--unless he had some reason to believe that Alex would not (or could not) be killed. Then after it happened, Ben seemed most shocked that "the rules" had changed. Is the act of killing Alex what changed the rules? Or did Widmore change the rules before that, thereby allowing Keamy to kill Alex? And if that is what happened how was Widmore able to change them without Ben realizing it?
Excellent questions here...

You started the topic, what are your thoughts??

WE now know for sure that Ben and Widmore are opposed each other. We also know that Ben took the island from him and Widmore is pissed about that.

SO is Widmore The man behind Dharma??
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)

I just think it's sad that the last thing Alex heard was her adopted father saying that she was just a pawn, that he didn't care about her, or care if she got killed.  That sucks!!!
This was definitely a bluff, but obviously it wouldn't work on a Uganda mercenary! If Ben thought that would stop Keamy from shooting, he isn't that intelligent. I think Ben was hoping to buy some time and reason things out.

Offline Ladybug

  • Dharma VIP
  • *******
  • Posts: 20841
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2008, 03:25:34 PM »
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?

Offline Shakey

  • Survivor
  • ***
  • Posts: 613
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2008, 03:32:43 PM »
It makes me wonder if Ben similarly thought that Keamy would be unable to kill Alex. It struck me as odd that he was willing to bluff with his daughter's life like that--unless he had some reason to believe that Alex would not (or could not) be killed. Then after it happened, Ben seemed most shocked that "the rules" had changed. Is the act of killing Alex what changed the rules? Or did Widmore change the rules before that, thereby allowing Keamy to kill Alex? And if that is what happened how was Widmore able to change them without Ben realizing it?
A thought that I can't seem to shake is this.. maybe Ben's been through this before.  Just as Desmond saved Charlie numerous times, perhaps Ben's experienced this before.  Maybe Alex wasn't killed the last time this thing played out (whether it be that Keamy didn't pull the trigger or something else happened that spared Alex's life).  Maybe the island somehow intervened the last time but this time it didn't.  Maybe the "rules" changed in a way that her life was no longer important to the island.

I don't know... like I said, it's just a thought that I can't shake.

Oh, and as for the relationship between Ben and Widmore.. it must be a very personal one because he knew that sleeping with a bottle of scotch was new.  I have to say, I don't know what my best friends have in their bedrooms and I certainly wouldn't be privy to that information as it pertains to an adversary.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 03:36:06 PM by Shakey »

Offline JBRam

  • Island Native
  • *
  • Posts: 30614
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2008, 03:36:05 PM »
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?
I don't think he's a descendant of Hanso, but it is possible. I think he ended up taking over the company from Alvar.

It makes me wonder if Ben similarly thought that Keamy would be unable to kill Alex. It struck me as odd that he was willing to bluff with his daughter's life like that--unless he had some reason to believe that Alex would not (or could not) be killed. Then after it happened, Ben seemed most shocked that "the rules" had changed. Is the act of killing Alex what changed the rules? Or did Widmore change the rules before that, thereby allowing Keamy to kill Alex? And if that is what happened how was Widmore able to change them without Ben realizing it?
A thought that I can't seem to shake is this.. maybe Ben's been through this before.  Just as Desmond saved Charlie numerous times, perhaps Ben's experienced this before.  Maybe Alex wasn't killed the last time this thing played out (whether it be that Keamy didn't pull the trigger or something else happened that spared Alex's life--maybe the island intervened).  Maybe the island somehow intervened the last time but this time it didn't.  Maybe the "rules" changed in a way that her life was no longer important to the island.

I don't know... like I said, it's just a thought that I can't shake.

Oh, and as for the relationship between Ben and Widmore.. it must be a very personal one because he knew that sleeping with a bottle of scotch was new.  I have to say, I don't know what my best friends have in their bedrooms and I certainly wouldn't be privy to that information as it pertains to an adversary.
I've briefly considered the Groundhog Day effect before... but I cannot agree with it yet.

Offline lostfan777

  • In the Loop
  • ****
  • Posts: 1477
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2008, 04:10:33 PM »
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?

I got the feeling Widmore was behind Dharma, but didn't he also say something like, "it was my island, it's always been my island..." or did I just imagine that?  If he did, it could certainly mean he goes back to a time before Dharma.  Perhaps as far back as Richard seems to go or further.

Offline JBRam

  • Island Native
  • *
  • Posts: 30614
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2008, 04:13:37 PM »
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?

I got the feeling Widmore was behind Dharma, but didn't he also say something like, "it was my island, it's always been my island..." or did I just imagine that?  If he did, it could certainly mean he goes back to a time before Dharma.  Perhaps as far back as Richard seems to go or further.
He did say something very similar to that. He also said Ben stole it.

Offline Ladybug

  • Dharma VIP
  • *******
  • Posts: 20841
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2008, 04:39:58 PM »
I'm wondering if Widmore WAS the man controlling Dharma. I almost put that in my initial post, but I wanted to hear other peoples' perspectives before I gave mine.

Widmore said that the island once belonged to him and Ben stole it. That makes me definitely think that Widmore is behind Dharma, something I've been saying for a while (in all fairness, I only thought they were related, and that Hanso was controlling Dharma. Maybe Widmore was controlling Hanso?)
i'm on board with this theory.  last night when widmore said, "it was my island, and you took it from me" i immediately thought that meant he was behind dharma.  maybe widmore is a descendant of the older hanso, and the controller of dharma.  what do you think?

I got the feeling Widmore was behind Dharma, but didn't he also say something like, "it was my island, it's always been my island..." or did I just imagine that?  If he did, it could certainly mean he goes back to a time before Dharma.  Perhaps as far back as Richard seems to go or further.
but maybe he meant it more like, "it was my island, it's always been my island [because my descendants were there way before anyone else]"

Offline Rebel 3:16

  • Red Shirt
  • **
  • Posts: 427
    • View Profile
Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2008, 05:48:20 PM »
Sorry to jump in on this topic a bit late but had a couple of things to get off my chest....

Someone earlier says Ben gets people to do his killings, Michael, Sayid etc so that Ben is 'one of the good guys'. Also pointed out was the idea that Smokey wont kill innocent people, just kills 'killers' - well Ben killed his own father, he put on his gas mask and pulled the canister of cyanide thus killing his pop (probably deserved it mind).

Also I would agree that Widmore has big dealings with Dharma and I would also assume that this is why Widmore feels the Island was his. After the purge Ben and his people 'hide' the Island - the biggest mystery for me now that we know there is a major amount of time travel (banding time if you prefer) is who the hell are Adam and Eve? And what happened to Bens childhood friend Annie?