Author Topic: Ben vs Widmore  (Read 14028 times)

Offline JBRam

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Ben vs Widmore
« on: April 25, 2008, 12:11:26 AM »
What is UP with that?!

Offline MichiganFan

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 12:12:45 AM »
"You changed the rules."

It sounds like they are on a scavenger hunt or something.

Offline JBRam

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 12:13:51 AM »
Was it just me, or was Widmore not too upset about Penelope's impending murder?

Offline jugdish

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 12:14:02 AM »
You started the topic, what are your thoughts??

WE now know for sure that Ben and Widmore are opposed each other. We also know that Ben took the island from him and Widmore is pissed about that.

SO is Widmore The man behind Dharma??

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2008, 12:16:10 AM »
We keep repeating this thread and as we had speculated in previous season four episode Ben and Widmore know each other.

Yes, perhaps a game, but it is not a game of fun.  Ben stole something from Widmore and now he is paying.
He changed the rules by killing his daughter.  This cat and mouse game is not a surprise for Ben and he had a good game plan for this entire attack, unfortunately he didn't anticipate that they would have his daughter.


Offline becksmex

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 12:22:00 AM »
It seems a little too much like to really rich kids playing a horribly sick kids' game at the expense of people's lives.

That being said, it promises to be a frickin' awesome ride, if that is the case, because anything goes!!!

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 12:23:33 AM »
It seems a little too much like to really rich kids playing a horribly sick kids' game at the expense of people's lives.

That being said, it promises to be a frickin' awesome ride, if that is the case, because anything goes!!!

But it is more than a game it is really about the island. 

Offline hyperform

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 01:01:22 AM »
what i wanna know is, why cant ben kill widmore?

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 01:04:40 AM »
what i wanna know is, why cant ben kill widmore?

That's the new mystery that they introduce whenever they grace us with answers to old questions!  All in all, I think they told us quite alot this evening.

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 01:33:09 AM »
Maybe Ben & Widmore can't kill each other because they are each other's constant!  Somehow...

Offline Chops

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 03:05:48 AM »
Did you notice that during Ben and Charles scene their faces were half dark and half light.

Offline RM

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 04:01:10 AM »
As to why Ben "can't" kill Widmore, I thought of this two ways:

Ben seems quite obsessed with not actually literally committing murder (but rather arranging for someone else to do it for him).  That seems to be his dividing line between "the good people", "innocents" and everyone else:

He pointed out to Michael that killing Ana Lucia and Libby was Michael's on doing, not even the Others' own orders.  Ben was adamant about getting a list of "innocents" (who didn't deserve to die) on the boat from Michael.  Ben pinned Alex's death on Widmore, who quickly countered that Ben was responsible for her death (at least figuratively).

The public test of acceptance of Locke to the Others was whether he would kill someone -- when Locke wouldn't do it, Ben said, "I guess he's not who we thought he was", as if Locke had failed the test.  Then when he gave Locke the chance to kill his father, Locke wound up arranging for someone else, Sawyer, to do it (much like Ben would have).

Q1: Has Smokey only killed people who themselves have already committed murder?  (So as long as Ben hasn't, he's safe from Smokey; and he only released it on the Freighters after they had killed some people.)

--

The other way to look at it is that the Island "won't let" Widmore die the same way that it wouldn't let Michael die until it was through with him.  So Ben couldn't kill him even if he wanted to because the Island would interfere.

Jack fully intended to kill Locke, but did the Island interfere and arrange for the gun not to be loaded (because the Island wasn't through with Locke)?

Offline E-Rich

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 08:08:04 AM »
You started the topic, what are your thoughts??

WE now know for sure that Ben and Widmore are opposed each other. We also know that Ben took the island from him and Widmore is pissed about that.

SO is Widmore The man behind Dharma??

Well - we know Hanso, Dharma, and Widmore are all related and intertwined.  I just thought it was interesting that Ben said he couldn't kill Widmore.  Why in the world must he stay alive?  I like RM's idea of the Island having to do with it....but I'm wondering what Widmore is needed for....

Offline mattac

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 09:45:59 AM »
As to why Ben "can't" kill Widmore, I thought of this two ways:

Ben seems quite obsessed with not actually literally committing murder (but rather arranging for someone else to do it for him).  That seems to be his dividing line between "the good people", "innocents" and everyone else:

Maybe, but when Ben confronted Widmore at the end of the episode, he accuses him of killing Alex as though Widmore was the one that actually pulled the trigger (even though we saw it was obviously Widmore's hired gun Keamy). So in that sense it didn't seem to matter to Ben that there was one level of separation between Widmore and Alex's death. It seems like from Ben's perspective--Widmore is responsible for Keamy, Keamy killed Alex, so Widmore is responsible for Alex's murder.


The other way to look at it is that the Island "won't let" Widmore die the same way that it wouldn't let Michael die until it was through with him.  So Ben couldn't kill him even if he wanted to because the Island would interfere.

This sounds right to me. There's a reason why TPTB showed us Michael's failed suicide attempts before the events of this episode--it establishes that the island has some sort of metaphysical force or will that cannot be disobeyed. So indeed maybe Ben literally cannot kill Widmore, a fact that both he and Widmore seemed to know.

It makes me wonder if Ben similarly thought that Keamy would be unable to kill Alex. It struck me as odd that he was willing to bluff with his daughter's life like that--unless he had some reason to believe that Alex would not (or could not) be killed. Then after it happened, Ben seemed most shocked that "the rules" had changed. Is the act of killing Alex what changed the rules? Or did Widmore change the rules before that, thereby allowing Keamy to kill Alex? And if that is what happened how was Widmore able to change them without Ben realizing it?

Offline lostieloo

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Re: Ben vs Widmore
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2008, 09:52:58 AM »
I just think it's sad that the last thing Alex heard was her adopted father saying that she was just a pawn, that he didn't care about her, or care if she got killed.  That sucks!!!