Author Topic: Could Ben have staged the crash?  (Read 11589 times)

Offline anavrin

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2008, 04:48:22 PM »
So is there really a plane on the bottom of the ocean, or was it soundstaged and it's all a lie -- bodies weren't needed, etc., etc.?  Who was it that allegedly filmed the footage?  Could it have been shot in... the Hydra?  I hadn't thought of that before.

And if the wreckage is "found" in an remote part of the Pacific, what is the explanation for the "Oceanic 6" surviving?  What's their [coverup] story?  Did they swim/float hundreds of miles to an island or a boat?  Hurley?!?!

Offline thebeann

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2008, 04:52:32 PM »
I did a search of the transcripts and heres what I found:

The radio report in Miles' car (4x02) said: For the friends and family of the passengers of Oceanic 815, it can only be described as the worst-case scenario. With the plane accounted for, and a salvage mission unlikely, authorities are confirming all 324 passengers dead.

The reporter on the TV in Franks scene said:    ...recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims." Unquote.

This leads me to believe that the person(s) involved in the cover-up had counted on the bodies NOT identified other than by video made of decomposed bodies.

How convenient.

Convenience has nothing to do with it when you have enough money to pay someone NOT to do something.

I meant, how convenient that the Lost writers came up with this. They got a camera down there and it looked pretty clear. I would really be surprised if in real life, there wouldn't be some sort of attempt to get the bodies - at least the pilot, for Pete's Sake!

Offline fieldy32

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2008, 05:33:41 PM »
Let me start out by saying I'm not trying to "fight" with you, I'm just pointing out some holes you have YET to fill, so stop getting so offended by it, but onto this business... No, I know you're not trying to fight. This is an honest conversation here and after rereading some of my posts, I can tell they came off as a bit harsh and hostile... totally unintentional. I'm actually having fun with this and it's nice to have someone truly respond to one of my posts.  That being said, this is probably a discussion better suited for a face to face talk, not something to be had on a forum... but of course, I'll try and fill my holes.


Wait, then how do you explain Miss Hawkings knowing that the man in red shoes was going to die? Would a vessel know that?
Well, I don't think you understand what I mean by a vessel. The only thing I think that Miss Hawkings knows, is how to sell Jewelery. Miss Hawkings is acting as a vessel for whatever force is behind the nature of the universe. Sort of like the Metatron being the voice of god. If you were to go to this Miss Hawkings, and ask her about "course correction" and time travel, she wouldn't know what you mean. But what ever this force is, does know. So the answer to your question (in essence) is that yes, this would be the exact kind of info that the force speaking through Miss Hawkings would be privy to I basically knew what you meant by a vessel, I just didn't see it that way when I watched the episode.  It's all in the eye of the beholder tho, right? Lol
Plus we see her in a picture with the preist that Desmond was working for after the priest helped him off the street (I suspect he plays a role in this too).  You're going to tell me that's just a big coincidence?
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't seem that odd does it?? I have to say, to me it does seem odd, but more importantly, it seems not Lost-like. They typically don't give you a clear screenshot of something like that picture without it having more meaning behind it.  Once again tho, it's in the eye of the beholder.
I think there's one thing Lost taught me about itself, and that is that there are no coincidences.  This is how Desmond ends up meeting Penny in the first place, too. 

Now about the Charlie thing, if he woulda died the first time (I can't remember what that was, maybe the lightning) they never woulda found Naomi (because the Naomi trip was another Des vision of Charlie dying) Yes they would have, because if you remember what Farraday said, "You can't change the future." and this plays into the course correction thing as well. They would have found her, but not because of Desmond's vision Now the major holes to be filled... the future can be changed, proven by Eloise.  He zaps her to the future, she comes back, and runs the maze.  He then never teaches her to run the maze after that (as far as we know. I think he had more important things to write on his chalkboard than to teach a rat to run a maze it already knows. Just a thought). Secondly, the immediate future can be changed, proven by Desmond un-course-correcting Charlie's timeline multiple times, thus changing the immediate future multiple times.  Can we agree on that? So that means the future can be changed, yet to make drastic changes that lost for a long time, you'll have to keep changing the immediate future, like Desmond did with Charlie (just not as long as I mean, as in years), and she woulda died from her wounds, thus the freighter would be just chilling in the ocean wondering what the hell happened to her because they wouldn't have that signal to trace. Yeah, maybe they send the next helicopter out to look for her, but they don't have the bearings to follow so they fly all over the place, maybe they find the island, but it's the same way Naomi did so that helicopter crashes too instead of landing safely. But, they would have sent the chopper out with Frank, who obviously can manage to get through the disturbance and land with (virtually) no problem. In which case, they would have followed the GPS tracker that she, and the rest of the freighter crew wore, and eventually found her body. Here was another major hole I left. Let's see if I can fill it... it's my understanding that Frank only got that heli through the 'bubble' because they flew straight to Naomi's signal, which just so happened to be the 305 bearing. Now, Daniel tell's Frank to follow that same path back (basically just saying to backtrack) because they never had a 305 bearing in the first place (as in, when they left the freighter, it was just follow Naomi's signal), that just happened to be the bearing they came in on.  Dan realizes somethings up with the 'bubble' bc of his rocket test on-island, thus leading him to tell Frank to follow 305.  Now this is where my whole different time thing with Charlie comes into play.  If Des let Charlie die the first time he was supposed to die, that would've meant the trip to find Naomi never happens cuz that was an 'un-course-correcting' of Charlie's timeline by Desmond. With that said, Naomi would've crashed without anyone looking for her. She had serious wounds, which then means that she wouldn't have been able to traverse the island (which she basically knows nothing about). Now remember, she would have had to have gone to turn of Rousseau's repeating message signal AND she would've had to have turned off the signal blocker in the Looking Glass station if she wanted to make that call to her people on the freighters and give them her signal. Now, I do remember that Patchy comes strolling through there and stumbles across her, and if that were to still happen in the new time-line, I'm sure he would have just killed her instead of helped her since  Desmond and the other Losties wouldn't have been there to protect her.... I hope that was enough to fill that hole. Which would in turn destroy the whole Oceanic 6 timeline, at least for a little while.  IMO, the whole "time-travel" thing is going to be a much bigger role in the Lost universe than we think or were lead to believe by TPTB, which I never have listened to in the first place. I don't watch their podcasts, bc those are basically spoilers too, and spoilers are bullshyte Agreed. Whoops, got a little off subject there. 

I kind of see Desmond as a Ben-type character.HUH?!?!?!?!  Ben was initially supposed to be in a few episodes than disappear (be killed-off, etc.), HUH?!?!?!?!?! This was stated in an interview, I can't recall with which actor (probably Michael Emerson himself), but it was in a magazine or something like that (I do read interviews, but I don't watch podcasts. Interviews are typically spoiler-free... typically) Benjamin Linus was initially a non-essential character, just someone to introduce us to the Others but we all know now that Ben is one of the biggest characters in the story, because of how his actor portrayed him. I think it's more of how the writers wrote it, but okay. I can see what you mean  What if Desmond was the same thing, what if he was supposed to be dead already (or just out of the story) in the original plan of the creators, but because of how his actor has portrayed him, he has now become a integral part of the story too, maybe even the key to the whole story I totally agree with that completely. I thought that after his second episode.  Now remember, this is just my opinion. We're all entitled to those right? I just want to see what other people have to say.
I guess what I've been trying to say is that you can change the immediate future... thus leading me to believe that there's a group (Ben's, Widmore's, Dharma's, maybe an as-of-yet unknown group) that has 'time-jumpers' un-course-correcting the overall timeline to basically pull of the ultimate cover-up (although this would be a tedious, life-consuming job due to the constant amount of future changing involved.)  This also sort of explains why in alot of the flashbacks, someones bumping into one of our main characters and sending them into a course that they weren't originally intending to follow (like the whole Jin-panda scene.) Man, I hope this helped fill in my holes, because honestly, this is the second time I've tried, the first time I guess my login timed out and I lost everything that I had typed, so I still don't think I got in everything I wanted to say this time. Oh well, it was still fun and thanks again BobBX for having this, for lack of a better word, argument with me.  It was kind of like a debate, I guess.  Don't worry though, I'm officially done with this theory. I threw it out there with all the other crazy theories, and now I see how hard it can be to post your own theory. At least I didn't try proving Kevin Johnson was someone other than Michael, right?

Offline fieldy32

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2008, 05:38:56 PM »
So is there really a plane on the bottom of the ocean, or was it soundstaged and it's all a lie -- bodies weren't needed, etc., etc.?  Who was it that allegedly filmed the footage?  Could it have been shot in... the Hydra?  I hadn't thought of that before.

And if the wreckage is "found" in an remote part of the Pacific, what is the explanation for the "Oceanic 6" surviving?  What's their [coverup] story?  Did they swim/float hundreds of miles to an island or a boat?  Hurley?!?!
Wasn't it a treasure hunting group trying to find the Black Rock that found the "Oceanic 815 wreckage".  That could mean they were also hired by Widmore, right?  As for the explanation for the O6 surviving, maybe they used Hurley as a life raft? Sorry, I couldn't help myself

Offline anavrin

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2008, 06:08:40 PM »
So is there really a plane on the bottom of the ocean, or was it soundstaged and it's all a lie -- bodies weren't needed, etc., etc.?  Who was it that allegedly filmed the footage?  Could it have been shot in... the Hydra?  I hadn't thought of that before.

And if the wreckage is "found" in an remote part of the Pacific, what is the explanation for the "Oceanic 6" surviving?  What's their [coverup] story?  Did they swim/float hundreds of miles to an island or a boat?  Hurley?!?!
Wasn't it a treasure hunting group trying to find the Black Rock that found the "Oceanic 815 wreckage".  That could mean they were also hired by Widmore, right?  As for the explanation for the O6 surviving, maybe they used Hurley as a life raft? Sorry, I couldn't help myself

I dunno.  I keep looking for holes in the story and, with so much left unknown, I'm not finding any at this point.  I hope they keep it tight.  There have to be some great creative minds working on this to give us what they have thus far.

Actually, holes in the story/logic were one of the reasons I really disliked Heroes at the start.  Once I forced myself to overlook them, I liked it a lot more.

OK, end tangent.

Offline cbw420

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2008, 06:16:54 PM »
I did a search of the transcripts and heres what I found:

The radio report in Miles' car (4x02) said: For the friends and family of the passengers of Oceanic 815, it can only be described as the worst-case scenario. With the plane accounted for, and a salvage mission unlikely, authorities are confirming all 324 passengers dead.

The reporter on the TV in Franks scene said:    ...recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims." Unquote.

This leads me to believe that the person(s) involved in the cover-up had counted on the bodies NOT identified other than by video made of decomposed bodies.

How convenient.

Convenience has nothing to do with it when you have enough money to pay someone NOT to do something.

I meant, how convenient that the Lost writers came up with this. They got a camera down there and it looked pretty clear. I would really be surprised if in real life, there wouldn't be some sort of attempt to get the bodies - at least the pilot, for Pete's Sake!

sometimes its just not possible, when i was in the marines, we lost a helo off the north carolina cost, it could not be retrieved, and it was only 100meters down

Offline thebeann

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2008, 11:07:29 PM »
I did a search of the transcripts and heres what I found:

The radio report in Miles' car (4x02) said: For the friends and family of the passengers of Oceanic 815, it can only be described as the worst-case scenario. With the plane accounted for, and a salvage mission unlikely, authorities are confirming all 324 passengers dead.

The reporter on the TV in Franks scene said:    ...recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims." Unquote.

This leads me to believe that the person(s) involved in the cover-up had counted on the bodies NOT identified other than by video made of decomposed bodies.

How convenient.

Convenience has nothing to do with it when you have enough money to pay someone NOT to do something.

I meant, how convenient that the Lost writers came up with this. They got a camera down there and it looked pretty clear. I would really be surprised if in real life, there wouldn't be some sort of attempt to get the bodies - at least the pilot, for Pete's Sake!

sometimes its just not possible, when i was in the marines, we lost a helo off the north carolina cost, it could not be retrieved, and it was only 100meters down

LIke I said...how convenient of a story line. Makes any speculation about how anyone could possibly pull this off mute.

Offline opgelost

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2008, 08:10:42 AM »
I think the plane they found is somehow the real oceanic plane with the real dead bodies of the losties.
It would be much easier just to never find a missing plane than to put a fake plane with dead bodies in the sunda trench and hoping someone will go searching the ocean in that exact spot. They were flying for 6 hours in the wrong direction, when the plane crashed. No one could know where to look for the plane.

They found the plane when they were looking for the black rock.
Where is the black rock? On the island.
Where is the plane? On the island.
There is something under water. An opening to the island. The Dharmapeople and the others used a submarine to get on and off the island. I thought they would find Desmond's boat and Rousseau's ship there too.

I cannot believe Ben or Jacob or whoever build a fake plane to put in the ocean with disintegrating bodies of other people.
I know lost is weird, but not this weird.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2008, 09:37:07 AM »
Whoaaa

For some time we have known there was a "fake" flight 815 at the bottom of the ocean.  The question at hand is and has been who had the resources to stage this crash.  I have always said you have to have access to many things to have a whole plane found on the bottom of an ocean.  Does one individual have the ability to move a plane, 300 plus bodies to this underwater site without notice.

Personally I do not accredit Ben with such a feat nor Charles Widmore unless they have such a relationship with a government entity to pull this off.

If we believe the Captain, Charles Widmore's team had found the black box, at great expense to Mr. Widmore, ergo his team found the plane.  I think we were actually shown this, when Frank called and said that can't be the Captain of flight 815 as he wore a ring.

Let me step back, in season one we saw the Captain plucked from the nose of Oceanic 815, while Jack, Charlie and Kate watched.  His blood was on the windshield and later Kate sees him in the trees.

As for Ben taking bodies off the island etc. not feasible or reasonable.  The possible reason for the "staged" plane was to stop anyone from looking any further for the flight. 

Cover up, conspiracy whatever it is they had to have access to bodies, records etc.  As to pulling them from the wreckage it may not have been feasible and perhaps the families were convinced ($$$$) to let their loved ones remain in their peaceful water grave. 


Offline LostAndSeek

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2008, 10:33:35 AM »
When we first met Ben, he looked like an innocent from the midwest. Then he turned out to be an Other. Then he turned out to be the leader of the Others. Then he turned out to have off-island resources. Now it looks like those resources are truly substantial. Just another step in the progression. I think we'll find Ben has the resources to plant that fake plane. Whether it was him or Widmore or someone else who actually did it may be the big mystery of this season.


Offline Madam P

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2008, 11:17:49 AM »
I don't see why Ben would've staged the crash.  I think it's more likely that it was as someone posted earlier -- he could've staged something so the plane would be diverted to Fiji (transfer point to the island), then planned to get whomever he needed off the plane there and bring them to the island (kidnapping, or whatever ...  "Thank you for flying Oceanic, we apologize for the inconvenience of our diverted flight, if you'll all please step this way we'll get you on another flight and back on your way...")  That would be easily accomplished by someone with Widmore's clout and (if we are to assume he has clout also) Ben.  And then, also as someone else said, they were just unfortunate enough that the plane happened to be over the island when Desmond pulled the fail-safe.

Also, if Ben wanted Jack to do his spinal surgery, he surely wouldn't want to risk him dying in a plane crash, right?  He'd prefer to kidnap him or something.

As far as the crash site that we see on the news, I'm convinced it's faked or CGI -- there are just too many complications with obtaining a real jetliner and 300+ bodies to sink there.  And why would you need to?  With today's tech, just have your boat come back with footage, with experts (hired by you) aboard to state that it was found at X depth which makes it unsalvageable, and who's going to double-check it?  Filming something like that or CGI'ing it is definitely something Widmore (or Ben) could pull off.  It just seems far more likely to me than having a real jet and real bodies.

Offline LostAndSeek

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2008, 11:36:18 AM »
I can go either way on the faked plane being physical or virtual.

Right now, I'm leaning towards physical for dramatic effect if nothing else. I think the Powers want to show us that whoever is behind that coverup have enormous resources at their disposal and that they're absolutely ruthless to boot.

But in the real world, I agree with you, Madam P., a virtual coverup would be a lot more feasible.

Offline Austruck

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2008, 12:09:16 PM »
what I find odd about the faked plane crash and the wrong pilot body is this: For someone who had the specifics and resources to do such a thing, why would you get a simple thing wrong like whether or not the pilot wore a ring?

That seems like such a huge slip-up, especially if the thing is virtual/CGI of some sort. If it's Ben doing the staging, remember that this is the guy who has huge files on every person on that plane. Surely they would have known NOT to put a ring on the pilot's (fake) body!

Or are the Lost writers just slipping a little on this one detail?

Offline LostAndSeek

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2008, 01:03:30 PM »
In something as massive as this fake coverup you can't get every detail right. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

Offline LostinLock

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2008, 01:21:24 PM »
Simply stated this is a bit far fetched, for even Ben, to have a plane crash for a spinal surgeon.

If he wanted Jack he could have brought Jack there in a different way.  He simply removed or we think he did removed Juliette's ex husband.  He brought Locke's father to the island.

Great ideas though

As for the missing details, I dont' think they expected anyone, ie: Frank Lapidus to show up and say wow look....