Author Topic: Could Ben have staged the crash?  (Read 11401 times)

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2008, 02:18:19 PM »
Again, I'm not an expert. But many news reports on crashes suggest that there is an attempt to identify bodies, at least those not burned beyond recognition.

Yeah, but they'd still have to bring the wreckage and all the bodies up the ocean floor, first. I'm not sure if that ever happened (can't remember anything being mentioned about it).

Plus, if you have THAT many resources to stage a huge plane wreckage and fill it with dead bodies without ANYONE discovering what you're doing, then you probably have the resources to fake hair and dental record matches. If the bodies are decomposed and damaged enough through both the plane crash and the effects of being underwater, then family members and loved ones could be told that "this is your husband, we confirmed it with the dental records we requested and the blood samples we tested, his seat number, etc, etc."...I would imagine any family member would accept that as fact without needing to ID the body itself. They may want to see the body, but if it's decayed and bloated and deteriorating, and you've already been told that dental records and seating charts indicate that it IS your loved one, well...

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2008, 02:23:24 PM »
I'm still thinking that the initial crash (Oceanic815, the real plane) was planned.  I think Ben somehow planned to have that plane crash on the island, if maybe just due to the fact that Jack was on the plane and Ben REALLY needed a spinal surgeon now (obviously). Remember, Juliet told Ben that Jack was a spinal surgeon, and he wasn't the least bit surprised, happy, or grateful.  So, if that were the case that he had this plane deliberately brought down, maybe he has someone on the inside with Oceanic, and maybe that's how he got another plane to plant in that trench.  Of course, this is all just major speculation

Nah, I think it was already shown conclusively that Desmond's pushing the button too late somehow lead to flight 815's crash...I'm not sure but I even think TPTB verified that.

I think Ben thought the island brought him Jack, and with Ben's significant desire to connect with the island (remember, he was envious of how Locke was able to do so with relative ease), he saw the "spinal surgeon falling from the sky" as a sign...
Ok, then I have this response for you... Remember the woman that wouldn't sell the ring to Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes"?  What if the real reason she wanted him to go to the island was so that Desmond would push the button late on that fateful day, bringing down Jack (not to mention Walt) from the sky?  Why would she want him to do that, you ask?  Because she's working for Ben. So there you go, the plane still crashed due to Desmonds late button pressing, and yet at the same time, it was still planned. If there are people who can see into the future, then you can plan for something years ahead of time, you can be setting things in motion just to have one incident happen.  Now please, don't bring up the course correcting thing, Desmond messed with Charlies course a bunch of times and finally we got the "Not Pennies boat" incident. That never woulda happened if Desmond wouldn't have messed with Charlies time-course, right? That was a rhetorical question

Two things:

1) MUCH easier to just hire someone to pretend to be Kelvin's replacement, and have THEM not push the button in time on that fateful day. Since Ben would have known all this in advance, he could have planned that in a far more easier fashion.

2) I think the more direct storyline to the woman in the jewelry store that wouldn't sell the ring to Desmond, is that she realized that Des needed to be on the island to turn the fail safe key (at the time he turned it, nobody else knew about the fail safe). She knew Des needed to be there to save the world (such as it were).

I don't think Ben planned the crash, but in response to the coincidence of him needing a spinal surgeon and there being one on the plane:

  I don't think the crash was planned, but I think the equipment malfunction was.  I think that Ben did know Jack was on the plane, and that he also knew of a few other people of interest that were on the plane, like Claire and soon-to-be-special baby Aaron.  I think the the plane was being diverted to Fiji, which is a way station for transport to the Island. Rember that the submarine was not a long range one, and remember that Juliet started out on a plane and ended up on a submarine?  I think that Fiji is a routine transfer station for people coming to and from the Island.

Anyway, the plane was purposefully caused to diver to Fiji so that Jack and Clair and some others could be taken off the plane and transported to the Island, an their flight path took them over the Island, and that they were simply unfortunate enough to be over the Island when Desmond failed to push the button.

So, Ben caused the plane to be over the Island when Desmond failed to push the button, but he did not cause the crash and never intended to.  If you needed a spinal surgeon, why risk having him die in a plane crash when you could quietly slip him off the plane in Fiji instead?

Offline CastawayCayley

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2008, 02:25:14 PM »
I did a search of the transcripts and heres what I found:

The radio report in Miles' car (4x02) said: For the friends and family of the passengers of Oceanic 815, it can only be described as the worst-case scenario. With the plane accounted for, and a salvage mission unlikely, authorities are confirming all 324 passengers dead.

The reporter on the TV in Franks scene said:    ...recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims." Unquote.

This leads me to believe that the person(s) involved in the cover-up had counted on the bodies NOT identified other than by video made of decomposed bodies.

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2008, 02:29:44 PM »
Nadi Airport in Fiji is the Pacific Air hub.  1.3 million people pass through it each year and it is capable of handling a Boeing 747.

Offline fieldy32

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2008, 02:33:06 PM »
Ok, then I have this response for you... Remember the woman that wouldn't sell the ring to Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes"?  What if the real reason she wanted him to go to the island was so that Desmond would push the button late on that fateful day, bringing down Jack (not to mention Walt) from the sky?  Why would she want him to do that, you ask?  Because she's working for Ben. So there you go, the plane still crashed due to Desmonds late button pressing, and yet at the same time, it was still planned. If there are people who can see into the future, then you can plan for something years ahead of time, you can be setting things in motion just to have one incident happen.  Now please, don't bring up the course correcting thing, Desmond messed with Charlies course a bunch of times and finally we got the "Not Pennies boat" incident. That never woulda happened if Desmond wouldn't have messed with Charlies time-course, right? That was a rhetorical question

Okay, hate to butt in here, but in regards to Miss Hawkings, I don't think that she was working for Ben. In fact, I don't think she was anything more than a little old lady working in a jewelry store. When Desmond went back and talked to her after turning the key, she dropped all that knowledge on him, not because she actually knew about the nature of the universe, but it was more like she was being used as a vessel to tell Desmond why he had to do what he had to do. As for the course correcting thing deffinitely applies, because if Desmond wouldn't have "let" Charlie go down there, then there would have been another reason that Desmond had to save him. You're inferring that the ultimate goal was to get the "Not Penny's boat" message, but in all honesty the ultimate goal regarding Desmond and Charlie was for Charlie to die. It just so happened that this time Charlie's death resulted in these new clowns showing up.
Wait, then how do you explain Miss Hawkings knowing that the man in red shoes was going to die? Would a vessel know that? Plus we see her in a picture with the preist that Desmond was working for after the priest helped him off the street (I suspect he plays a role in this too).  You're going to tell me that's just a big coincidence? I think there's one thing Lost taught me about itself, and that is that there are no coincidences.  This is how Desmond ends up meeting Penny in the first place, too.  
Now about the Charlie thing, if he woulda died the first time (I can't remember what that was, maybe the lightning) they never woulda found Naomi (because the Naomi trip was another Des vision of Charlie dying), and she woulda died from her wounds, thus the freighter would be just chilling in the ocean wondering what the hell happened to her because they wouldn't have that signal to trace. Yeah, maybe they send the next helicopter out to look for her, but they don't have the bearings to follow so they fly all over the place, maybe they find the island, but it's the same way Naomi did so that helicopter crashes too instead of landing safely. Which would in turn destroy the whole Oceanic 6 timeline, at least for a little while.  IMO, the whole "time-travel" thing is going to be a much bigger role in the Lost universe than we think or were lead to believe by TPTB, which I never have listened to in the first place. I don't watch their podcasts, bc those are basically spoilers too, and spoilers are bullshyte. Whoops, got a little off subject there.  
I kind of see Desmond as a Ben-type character.  Ben was initially supposed to be in a few episodes than disappear (be killed-off, etc.), but we all know now that Ben is one of the biggest characters in the story, because of how his actor portrayed him.  What if Desmond was the same thing, what if he was supposed to be dead already (or just out of the story) in the original plan of the creators, but because of how his actor has portrayed him, he has now become a integral part of the story too, maybe even the key to the whole story.  Now remember, this is just my opinion. We're all entitled to those right? I just want to see what other people have to say.

Offline fieldy32

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2008, 02:48:00 PM »
Whoops, I forgot about Jacob (I know, I know).  He is also a viable candidate for planning all of this, if only due to the fact that we know absolutely nothing about him.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2008, 02:55:06 PM »
I did a search of the transcripts and heres what I found:

The radio report in Miles' car (4x02) said: For the friends and family of the passengers of Oceanic 815, it can only be described as the worst-case scenario. With the plane accounted for, and a salvage mission unlikely, authorities are confirming all 324 passengers dead.

The reporter on the TV in Franks scene said:    ...recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims." Unquote.

This leads me to believe that the person(s) involved in the cover-up had counted on the bodies NOT identified other than by video made of decomposed bodies.

Nice work...I was always assuming that the wreckage would not be recovered nor the bodies. Nice to not have to assume that anymore and take it as fact lol. However, this DOES bring up the possibility of the wreckage being filmed on a sound stage somewhere, with a huge water tank and fake (meaning, dummies and props) being used for the bodies.

Offline Survivor815

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2008, 03:11:47 PM »
Would they even be able to recover the bodies from that depth? Seems like they may have just found the entire plane, assumed no survivors, and issued the death certificates.

Yes I seem to remember them saying that they could not recover the wreckage and all passengers and crew were presumed dead.

Still don't see how this could have been staged....I'm leaning more towards Widmore being behind it though. He wants to know where the island is, but he also doesn't want anyone else finding out about it.

Offline cbw420

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2008, 03:29:03 PM »
they are not recovering the plane because it was in that trench

Offline fieldy32

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2008, 03:33:17 PM »
they are not recovering the plane because it was in that trench
This is the reason for sure, that trench is deep as hell.  Those submersibles they were in are about the only technology that can go that deep, and they definitely can't lift a commercial jetliner out of the bottom of the ocean.

Offline versed4every1

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2008, 03:36:18 PM »
Would they even be able to recover the bodies from that depth? Seems like they may have just found the entire plane, assumed no survivors, and issued the death certificates.

Yes I seem to remember them saying that they could not recover the wreckage and all passengers and crew were presumed dead.

Still don't see how this could have been staged....I'm leaning more towards Widmore being behind it though. He wants to know where the island is, but he also doesn't want anyone else finding out about it.

This is my opinion exactly.  Widmore knew about the fake wreckage and that the real plane crashed on the island.  I say this because Abaddon worked for Widmore and when Naomi asked him what to do if there were survivors, he told her emphatically that there were none.  My feeling is that the fact that the Oceanic 6 exist is contrary to what both Widmore and Ben really want; which makes me wonder if a 3rd party has anything to do with actually getting them of the island.  They have obviously made a deal with someone very powerful - and are willing to lie through their collective teeth in order to keep it. 

Offline BobBX542

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2008, 03:41:53 PM »
Let me start out by saying I'm not trying to "fight" with you, I'm just pointing out some holes you have YET to fill, so stop getting so offended by it, but onto this business...


Wait, then how do you explain Miss Hawkings knowing that the man in red shoes was going to die? Would a vessel know that?
Well, I don't think you understand what I mean by a vessel. The only thing I think that Miss Hawkings knows, is how to sell Jewelery. Miss Hawkings is acting as a vessel for whatever force is behind the nature of the universe. Sort of like the Metatron being the voice of god. If you were to go to this Miss Hawkings, and ask her about "course correction" and time travel, she wouldn't know what you mean. But what ever this force is, does know. So the answer to your question (in essence) is that yes, this would be the exact kind of info that the force speaking through Miss Hawkings would be privy to
Plus we see her in a picture with the preist that Desmond was working for after the priest helped him off the street (I suspect he plays a role in this too).  You're going to tell me that's just a big coincidence?
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't seem that odd does it??
I think there's one thing Lost taught me about itself, and that is that there are no coincidences.  This is how Desmond ends up meeting Penny in the first place, too. 

Now about the Charlie thing, if he woulda died the first time (I can't remember what that was, maybe the lightning) they never woulda found Naomi (because the Naomi trip was another Des vision of Charlie dying) Yes they would have, because if you remember what Farraday said, "You can't change the future." and this plays into the course correction thing as well. They would have found her, but not because of Desmond's vision, and she woulda died from her wounds, thus the freighter would be just chilling in the ocean wondering what the hell happened to her because they wouldn't have that signal to trace. Yeah, maybe they send the next helicopter out to look for her, but they don't have the bearings to follow so they fly all over the place, maybe they find the island, but it's the same way Naomi did so that helicopter crashes too instead of landing safely. But, they would have sent the chopper out with Frank, who obviously can manage to get through the disturbance and land with (virtually) no problem. In which case, they would have followed the GPS tracker that she, and the rest of the freighter crew wore, and eventually found her body. Which would in turn destroy the whole Oceanic 6 timeline, at least for a little while.  IMO, the whole "time-travel" thing is going to be a much bigger role in the Lost universe than we think or were lead to believe by TPTB, which I never have listened to in the first place. I don't watch their podcasts, bc those are basically spoilers too, and spoilers are bullshyte Agreed. Whoops, got a little off subject there. 

I kind of see Desmond as a Ben-type character.HUH?!?!?!?!  Ben was initially supposed to be in a few episodes than disappear (be killed-off, etc.), HUH?!?!?!?!?! but we all know now that Ben is one of the biggest characters in the story, because of how his actor portrayed him. I think it's more of how the writers wrote it, but okay. I can see what you mean What if Desmond was the same thing, what if he was supposed to be dead already (or just out of the story) in the original plan of the creators, but because of how his actor has portrayed him, he has now become a integral part of the story too, maybe even the key to the whole story I totally agree with that completely. I thought that after his second episode.  Now remember, this is just my opinion. We're all entitled to those right? I just want to see what other people have to say.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2008, 04:01:36 PM »
To answer the title question, yes, Ben COULD have staged the crash.  So could Widmore.  The crash could be an actual plane and actual bodies in an actual trench, or it could be CGI (afterall, James Cameron didn't have to sink an actual ship in Titanic to make it look believable).  The mystery lies with the note, "Don't trust the Captain".  Is the captain lying by implicating Ben and it is Widmore behind the cover-up.  Or is the person who wrote the note Ben's man on the boat, covering up for Ben by making the Captain out to be the bad guy.  I'm not even going to guess at this one yet, it could go either way and I don't think we'll learn the answer to this one for quite awhile because it will answer the old question of whether Ben is actually one of the good guys or not.

Offline thebeann

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2008, 04:21:36 PM »
I did a search of the transcripts and heres what I found:

The radio report in Miles' car (4x02) said: For the friends and family of the passengers of Oceanic 815, it can only be described as the worst-case scenario. With the plane accounted for, and a salvage mission unlikely, authorities are confirming all 324 passengers dead.

The reporter on the TV in Franks scene said:    ...recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims." Unquote.

This leads me to believe that the person(s) involved in the cover-up had counted on the bodies NOT identified other than by video made of decomposed bodies.

How convenient.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Could Ben have staged the crash?
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2008, 04:29:15 PM »
I did a search of the transcripts and heres what I found:

The radio report in Miles' car (4x02) said: For the friends and family of the passengers of Oceanic 815, it can only be described as the worst-case scenario. With the plane accounted for, and a salvage mission unlikely, authorities are confirming all 324 passengers dead.

The reporter on the TV in Franks scene said:    ...recovery of the bodies will be next to impossible. We can only hope that identification will provide closure to the families of the victims." Unquote.

This leads me to believe that the person(s) involved in the cover-up had counted on the bodies NOT identified other than by video made of decomposed bodies.

How convenient.

Convenience has nothing to do with it when you have enough money to pay someone NOT to do something.