Could Ben have staged the crash?

[anavrin]

"Don't trust the captain."  But think about it...

Ben and access to bodies:  He killed the whole Dharma camp.  Most of them seemed skeletal, but we don't know the condition of the people found in the wreckage.  There are also bodies of actual survivors who were killed on the island.  And the bodies that never left the plane in the first place.  We know the body of the plane's captain didn't actually match up to the captain because of the ring issue.

Ben and access to plane wreckage:  The submarine is blown up now, but could it have been used to tow pieces of the wreckage far out to sea to stage the wreckage?  The problem I see with this (other than the actual ability to do it, which I have no idea about) is that the front section of the plane was still on the island a few episodes ago, wasn't it?  When people were dividing up into camps, weren't some people standing near it?  If all 340 bodies were found with the plane, they'd need the entire plane, including the cockpit.  Ben does seem to have some odd resources, but can he come up with jumbo jets?

Would Ben have the foresight to do all that?

Who else would have the motivation to do all that?

[louisianagirl76l]

From what Miles said about Ben, this guy has resources and power beyond to scope of what is normal. I think that Ben has people off the island that work for him and do all his bidding. If he can come up with 3.2 mill in a week or whatever ....what else can he do?

[fieldy32]

I'm still thinking that the initial crash (Oceanic815, the real plane) was planned.  I think Ben somehow planned to have that plane crash on the island, if maybe just due to the fact that Jack was on the plane and Ben REALLY needed a spinal surgeon now (obviously). Remember, Juliet told Ben that Jack was a spinal surgeon, and he wasn't the least bit surprised, happy, or grateful.  So, if that were the case that he had this plane deliberately brought down, maybe he has someone on the inside with Oceanic, and maybe that's how he got another plane to plant in that trench.  Of course, this is all just major speculation

[WhatThe]

I'm still thinking that the initial crash (Oceanic815, the real plane) was planned.  I think Ben somehow planned to have that plane crash on the island, if maybe just due to the fact that Jack was on the plane and Ben REALLY needed a spinal surgeon now (obviously). Remember, Juliet told Ben that Jack was a spinal surgeon, and he wasn't the least bit surprised, happy, or grateful.  So, if that were the case that he had this plane deliberately brought down, maybe he has someone on the inside with Oceanic, and maybe that's how he got another plane to plant in that trench.  Of course, this is all just major speculation

Nah, I think it was already shown conclusively that Desmond's pushing the button too late somehow lead to flight 815's crash...I'm not sure but I even think TPTB verified that.

I think Ben thought the island brought him Jack, and with Ben's significant desire to connect with the island (remember, he was envious of how Locke was able to do so with relative ease), he saw the "spinal surgeon falling from the sky" as a sign...

[thebeann]

I don't think Ben planned the crash. He seemed as suprised as anyone when it happened.

I also don't think Ben used Dharma skeletons. FIrst, we saw the pit. How many more could there have been? Second, we DID see one of the bodies, the pilot. And he still had a lot of skin on him.

But bigger question: Let's say you have a way to get nearly 300 bodies - morgues, war, whatever. HOw do you orchestrate them matching up with dental records, hair, body type, etc? You can't just throw a body out there without some research. Jane Doe has short blond hair, so you can't call her passenger 57 Mary Moe who has long brunette hair. So maybe some of them "blew up on impact," but reasonably some of them had to be somewhat intact.

[Suzanne4Au2]

I think Ben absolutely set up that fake plane- he has the resources (according to Miles) and he has the motive- he doesn't want anyone near that island. So he set up the entire scene so they would stop looking for the plane!

[fieldy32]

I'm still thinking that the initial crash (Oceanic815, the real plane) was planned.  I think Ben somehow planned to have that plane crash on the island, if maybe just due to the fact that Jack was on the plane and Ben REALLY needed a spinal surgeon now (obviously). Remember, Juliet told Ben that Jack was a spinal surgeon, and he wasn't the least bit surprised, happy, or grateful.  So, if that were the case that he had this plane deliberately brought down, maybe he has someone on the inside with Oceanic, and maybe that's how he got another plane to plant in that trench.  Of course, this is all just major speculation

Nah, I think it was already shown conclusively that Desmond's pushing the button too late somehow lead to flight 815's crash...I'm not sure but I even think TPTB verified that.

I think Ben thought the island brought him Jack, and with Ben's significant desire to connect with the island (remember, he was envious of how Locke was able to do so with relative ease), he saw the "spinal surgeon falling from the sky" as a sign...

Ok, then I have this response for you... Remember the woman that wouldn't sell the ring to Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes"?  What if the real reason she wanted him to go to the island was so that Desmond would push the button late on that fateful day, bringing down Jack (not to mention Walt) from the sky?  Why would she want him to do that, you ask?  Because she's working for Ben. So there you go, the plane still crashed due to Desmonds late button pressing, and yet at the same time, it was still planned. If there are people who can see into the future, then you can plan for something years ahead of time, you can be setting things in motion just to have one incident happen.  Now please, don't bring up the course correcting thing, Desmond messed with Charlies course a bunch of times and finally we got the "Not Pennies boat" incident. That never woulda happened if Desmond wouldn't have messed with Charlies time-course, right? That was a rhetorical question

[BobBX542]

I don't think Ben planned the crash. He seemed as suprised as anyone when it happened.

I also don't think Ben used Dharma skeletons. FIrst, we saw the pit. How many more could there have been? Second, we DID see one of the bodies, the pilot. And he still had a lot of skin on him.

But bigger question: Let's say you have a way to get nearly 300 bodies - morgues, war, whatever. HOw do you orchestrate them matching up with dental records, hair, body type, etc? You can't just throw a body out there without some research. Jane Doe has short blond hair, so you can't call her passenger 57 Mary Moe who has long brunette hair. So maybe some of them "blew up on impact," but reasonably some of them had to be somewhat intact.

Well, you have to take a little bit more into account. I'm being serious about this, so don't think I'm trying to make a mockery, but with Airport Security as tight as it is, if they have a flight manifest that has 300+ names (I thought it 324, not 340, but whatever), and they find the plane that has the same number of dead bodies on it, then odds are they aren't going to be digging into dental records because they basically have the identities of the people in front of them, and locations of where the people were sitting.

[fieldy32]

I don't think Ben planned the crash. He seemed as suprised as anyone when it happened.

I also don't think Ben used Dharma skeletons. FIrst, we saw the pit. How many more could there have been? Second, we DID see one of the bodies, the pilot. And he still had a lot of skin on him.

But bigger question: Let's say you have a way to get nearly 300 bodies - morgues, war, whatever. HOw do you orchestrate them matching up with dental records, hair, body type, etc? You can't just throw a body out there without some research. Jane Doe has short blond hair, so you can't call her passenger 57 Mary Moe who has long brunette hair. So maybe some of them "blew up on impact," but reasonably some of them had to be somewhat intact.

Well, you have to take a little bit more into account. I'm being serious about this, so don't think I'm trying to make a mockery, but with Airport Security as tight as it is, if they have a flight manifest that has 300+ names (I thought it 324, not 340, but whatever), and they find the plane that has the same number of dead bodies on it, then odds are they aren't going to be digging into dental records because they basically have the identities of the people in front of them, and locations of where the people were sitting.

Not to mention, how long have those bodies been in the water?  Water is a pretty destructive force, especially with the currents in the ocean. I dunno if it's knock-your-teeth-out destructive, but definitely enough so to mess up the outside of the body (like hair and skin). Plus all those sea creatures munching down... eew

[wmcbighurt]

Would they even be able to recover the bodies from that depth? Seems like they may have just found the entire plane, assumed no survivors, and issued the death certificates.

[BobBX542]

Ok, then I have this response for you... Remember the woman that wouldn't sell the ring to Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes"?  What if the real reason she wanted him to go to the island was so that Desmond would push the button late on that fateful day, bringing down Jack (not to mention Walt) from the sky?  Why would she want him to do that, you ask?  Because she's working for Ben. So there you go, the plane still crashed due to Desmonds late button pressing, and yet at the same time, it was still planned. If there are people who can see into the future, then you can plan for something years ahead of time, you can be setting things in motion just to have one incident happen.  Now please, don't bring up the course correcting thing, Desmond messed with Charlies course a bunch of times and finally we got the "Not Pennies boat" incident. That never woulda happened if Desmond wouldn't have messed with Charlies time-course, right? That was a rhetorical question

Okay, hate to butt in here, but in regards to Miss Hawkings, I don't think that she was working for Ben. In fact, I don't think she was anything more than a little old lady working in a jewelry store. When Desmond went back and talked to her after turning the key, she dropped all that knowledge on him, not because she actually knew about the nature of the universe, but it was more like she was being used as a vessel to tell Desmond why he had to do what he had to do. As for the course correcting thing deffinitely applies, because if Desmond wouldn't have "let" Charlie go down there, then there would have been another reason that Desmond had to save him. You're inferring that the ultimate goal was to get the "Not Penny's boat" message, but in all honesty the ultimate goal regarding Desmond and Charlie was for Charlie to die. It just so happened that this time Charlie's death resulted in these new clowns showing up.

[thebeann]

I don't think Ben planned the crash. He seemed as suprised as anyone when it happened.

I also don't think Ben used Dharma skeletons. FIrst, we saw the pit. How many more could there have been? Second, we DID see one of the bodies, the pilot. And he still had a lot of skin on him.

But bigger question: Let's say you have a way to get nearly 300 bodies - morgues, war, whatever. HOw do you orchestrate them matching up with dental records, hair, body type, etc? You can't just throw a body out there without some research. Jane Doe has short blond hair, so you can't call her passenger 57 Mary Moe who has long brunette hair. So maybe some of them "blew up on impact," but reasonably some of them had to be somewhat intact.

Well, you have to take a little bit more into account. I'm being serious about this, so don't think I'm trying to make a mockery, but with Airport Security as tight as it is, if they have a flight manifest that has 300+ names (I thought it 324, not 340, but whatever), and they find the plane that has the same number of dead bodies on it, then odds are they aren't going to be digging into dental records because they basically have the identities of the people in front of them, and locations of where the people were sitting.

Right. Except families want the right bodies to come home. I am not an airline crash investigator, but I would think you would have to identify all of the bodies to get them to the right graves.

[WhatThe]

I'm still thinking that the initial crash (Oceanic815, the real plane) was planned.  I think Ben somehow planned to have that plane crash on the island, if maybe just due to the fact that Jack was on the plane and Ben REALLY needed a spinal surgeon now (obviously). Remember, Juliet told Ben that Jack was a spinal surgeon, and he wasn't the least bit surprised, happy, or grateful.  So, if that were the case that he had this plane deliberately brought down, maybe he has someone on the inside with Oceanic, and maybe that's how he got another plane to plant in that trench.  Of course, this is all just major speculation

Nah, I think it was already shown conclusively that Desmond's pushing the button too late somehow lead to flight 815's crash...I'm not sure but I even think TPTB verified that.

I think Ben thought the island brought him Jack, and with Ben's significant desire to connect with the island (remember, he was envious of how Locke was able to do so with relative ease), he saw the "spinal surgeon falling from the sky" as a sign...

Ok, then I have this response for you... Remember the woman that wouldn't sell the ring to Desmond in "Flashes Before Your Eyes"?  What if the real reason she wanted him to go to the island was so that Desmond would push the button late on that fateful day, bringing down Jack (not to mention Walt) from the sky?  Why would she want him to do that, you ask?  Because she's working for Ben. So there you go, the plane still crashed due to Desmonds late button pressing, and yet at the same time, it was still planned. If there are people who can see into the future, then you can plan for something years ahead of time, you can be setting things in motion just to have one incident happen.  Now please, don't bring up the course correcting thing, Desmond messed with Charlies course a bunch of times and finally we got the "Not Pennies boat" incident. That never woulda happened if Desmond wouldn't have messed with Charlies time-course, right? That was a rhetorical question

Two things:

1) MUCH easier to just hire someone to pretend to be Kelvin's replacement, and have THEM not push the button in time on that fateful day. Since Ben would have known all this in advance, he could have planned that in a far more easier fashion.

2) I think the more direct storyline to the woman in the jewelry store that wouldn't sell the ring to Desmond, is that she realized that Des needed to be on the island to turn the fail safe key (at the time he turned it, nobody else knew about the fail safe). She knew Des needed to be there to save the world (such as it were).

[WhatThe]

I don't think Ben planned the crash. He seemed as suprised as anyone when it happened.

I also don't think Ben used Dharma skeletons. FIrst, we saw the pit. How many more could there have been? Second, we DID see one of the bodies, the pilot. And he still had a lot of skin on him.

But bigger question: Let's say you have a way to get nearly 300 bodies - morgues, war, whatever. HOw do you orchestrate them matching up with dental records, hair, body type, etc? You can't just throw a body out there without some research. Jane Doe has short blond hair, so you can't call her passenger 57 Mary Moe who has long brunette hair. So maybe some of them "blew up on impact," but reasonably some of them had to be somewhat intact.

Well, you have to take a little bit more into account. I'm being serious about this, so don't think I'm trying to make a mockery, but with Airport Security as tight as it is, if they have a flight manifest that has 300+ names (I thought it 324, not 340, but whatever), and they find the plane that has the same number of dead bodies on it, then odds are they aren't going to be digging into dental records because they basically have the identities of the people in front of them, and locations of where the people were sitting.

Right. Except families want the right bodies to come home. I am not an airline crash investigator, but I would think you would have to identify all of the bodies to get them to the right graves.

Did they bring the crash remains to the surface? I can't remember if that was ever mentioned. It may be that the only thing they have done is spotted the wreckage with an underwater camera. If the fake plane wreckage and fake bodies are still underwater, then there wouldn't be a need for body identification, blood samples and dental record matching, etc. (perhaps bringing both up from the surface would be near impossible to do without significant further damage to the bodies, etc..). Not to mention that the condition of the bodies might make identification by loved ones nearly impossible.

[thebeann]

Again, I'm not an expert. But many news reports on crashes suggest that there is an attempt to identify bodies, at least those not burned beyond recognition.