Author Topic: Fastest Missile ever!  (Read 18057 times)

Offline goober

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2008, 02:33:50 PM »
I spent six years in the Navy studying missiles. I have a decent grasp on how they travel and how fast.

What exactly are you getting at?

Offline footballmom10

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2008, 02:44:44 PM »
I spent six years in the Navy studying missiles. I have a decent grasp on how they travel and how fast.

What exactly are you getting at?

Wiki the RIM-7 (sea sparrow).  Your numbers don't match what the navy says about their rocket.

Offline goober

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2008, 02:55:32 PM »
The Rim-7 travels about Mach 3.6. That's what I said. A rocket-propelled missile travels at Mach speed.

The projectile Miles pulled out of the sand was the size of a football. There was NO rocket. Thus it was a launched projectile and NOT a missile. Launched projectiles do NOT travel at Mach speeds.


EDIT: I just watched it again and Daniel says "It's a Rocket" when Jack asks him what's that. So it is rocket-propelled. My bad.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 03:01:39 PM by goober »

Offline LostAndSeek

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2008, 04:04:24 PM »
Re: LostAndSeek

waiting 4 missile     missile landing
   

Hmmm... OK, I'm intrigued. I'll have another look!

Offline footballmom10

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2008, 04:30:03 PM »
the engine burn was done.  they do that.

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2008, 06:56:24 PM »
LoA, I wouldn't make too much of the overly fast speeds as yet. We know the island messes with instrumentation. Or it could just be the Powers aren't as good at math as you are.

The overly slow speeds can also be explained by faulty instrumentation. Dan's position and the boat may be further away than instruments show. Or maybe the theories about a science fictiony shell of some sort around the island are correct.

I have to disagree. As this is critical to the very nature of what the island is, they wouldn't mess this up with faulty math, especially given that it only requires basic algebra.  Nor is this a matter of faulty instrumentation.  The phone conversation was in real-time, verifying the time discrepancy. The fairly basic (perhaps shielded?) timers were likely synchronized correctly, and were working properly upon the rocket's arrival.  This is a matter of perception, i.e. we saw Daniel wait, and it was likely for 31 minutes, while from Regina's vantage point it took only 28 seconds.  There is something intervening, and it's this still as-yet-to-be-determined 'bubble' laying between the ship & the island.

Interesting discussion, but it is based on something we do not know. How far is the freighter? We do not have that answer

The whole point of this dramatic science experiment was to give us enough data (speed and time) to calculate the distance to the freighter.  It is 35 miles from where Daniel is standing... surely a plausible result.  But more importantly, the huge discrepancy in the perception of the rocket's travel time offers us a measurable, quantitative effect on an object passing through whatever bubble surrounds the island.  All we need is the theory to explain it.

I'll be curious to see next week whether the chopper makes it back through the bubble with no incident. That'd suggest that only objects coming into the bubble (planes, choppers, Black Rock) are affected.

Re: LostAndSeek

waiting 4 missile     missile landing
   

I think this is, in fact, critical.  It's a hazy day, but Daniel surely can see the sun's location, and so can triangulate the position of the boat.  That the missile does come from the opposite direction is a strong tell that the 'path' wasn't direct as he had expected (and he's a clever boy).  Remember, Daniel was there on the chopper flying in, so he should already have some inkling in his head about the shape & nature of 'the bubble' based upon the chopper's flight path, turbulence and flying at night notwithstanding.  Otherwise he wouldn't have been so eager to do this experiment.

Why bring these three specialists to the island if not to provide the fans with definitive answers to some of the island's mysteries? Daniel will do the science, Charlotte the history, and Miles the spirit world.  I appreciate the Producers' motives in this, and trust that they're merely trying to avoid the critiques laid against X-Files and Star Trek for their unsubstantiated science and tendency to hit the 'reset button' at the end of each episode.

In Einstein's conception of space time, it is like a sanding belt.  To go to it's boundary is to go to it's origin.  I think what you have shown here a very good insight.  The missile didn't go all the way around the earth, but in entering the space time of the island, it chose to cross from back door instead of the front....but the back door is the front....and, from the perspective of Faraday, the trip took thirty one minutes and the vector was inverted.

Now who could dispute Einstein? This theory cleanly fits the evidence.  As this is a perception issue vis-a-vis space/time, I will stipulate that this small rocket, with fuel likely sufficient for a 28 second burn, 'flew' the short flight as seen from Regina's perspective.  This would obviate the need for the fuel contained in a larger, perhaps cruise-missile sized missile. 

The funny thing about science, especially the higher order science that requires incredible amounts of mathematics that is surely beyond me, is that it requires a degree of faith similar to the faith necessary to believe in God, or the faith Locke has in this island as a powerful, sentient agent.  We trust that thousands of advanced theoreticians are competing intensely enough amongst each other, and subject to sufficient peer review by journals, grant-issuing institutions, tenure committees, etc., such that the truths they espouse are closer to 'the Truth' than to voodoo.

the engine burn was done.  they do that.

Yeah, it was definitely rocket-propelled, as evidenced by the exhaust trail.  Also, the rocket banked as it approached the target.  A projectile can not change its vector mid-flight like that, even, say, a wickedly thrown knuckleball.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 07:10:09 PM by Lion of Atreides »

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2008, 07:34:27 PM »
The one question I want to know is are the clocks a timer or are they actually showing the time of day.

If it is a timer then it is showing us that it took over 2 hours to get there when it should have taken 28 seconds. And the time got manipulated some how. 
What I want to know is, if they WERE clocks, did Daniel synchronize the time with the boat at the moment of launch? Also, why did the clock already on the island (I'm assuming it's Daniel's clock) get effected by the island but the one in the missile/rocket did not, especially if it were supposed to have been moving around within the island's confines for over 30 minutes?

If I knew the answer to #1, I might have the answer to #2 lol... 

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2008, 07:47:49 PM »
I'm assuming the whole point of the equipment array Daniel set up, which included gizmos with antennas, was to uplink to the clock in the rocket on the boat and synchronize it with the clock on the island. Since Regina launched the rocket herself after being instructed by phone to do so, why else would Daniel need gizmos with antennas?

It's not so much which clock was affected that is important, but rather the discrepancies in perceptions of the flow of space-time vis-a-vis the bubble anomaly.

I don't think, ultimately, the rocket 'flew' for 31 minutes.  It didn't have enough fuel.  It 'flew' for the 28 seconds as seen from Regina's position outside the space-time anomaly, but from the position of the rocket AND from Daniel's position within the anomaly, that 28 second burn took 31 minutes and had its vector flipped, as footballmom10 suggests.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 07:49:39 PM by Lion of Atreides »

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2008, 08:30:39 PM »
I'm assuming the whole point of the equipment array Daniel set up, which included gizmos with antennas, was to uplink to the clock in the rocket on the boat and synchronize it with the clock on the island. Since Regina launched the rocket herself after being instructed by phone to do so, why else would Daniel need gizmos with antennas?

It's not so much which clock was affected that is important, but rather the discrepancies in perceptions of the flow of space-time vis-a-vis the bubble anomaly.

I don't think, ultimately, the rocket 'flew' for 31 minutes.  It didn't have enough fuel.  It 'flew' for the 28 seconds as seen from Regina's position outside the space-time anomaly, but from the position of the rocket AND from Daniel's position within the anomaly, that 28 second burn took 31 minutes and had its vector flipped, as footballmom10 suggests.
If the clocks were not synchronized, then maybe the island is 31 minutes in the past from the rest of the world. It would explain why Regina said the rocket hit its target, but it didn't show up on the island until 31 minutes later. Radio waves and sound waves could allow for the "real-time" convos between past and present (or present and future), without realizing that the person we're talking to is literally of another time. (I think there was even a movie about this lol...called "Frequency" or something. Had a guy talking to his own father back from the 60's, I believe, but neither of them realized it at first)...

That wouldn't explain the clocks, though lol...

Offline footballmom10

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2008, 08:43:04 PM »
missile schmissile. 8)

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2008, 08:46:04 PM »
Btw, did the show say it took the missile 31 minutes to hit its target on the island?...I know there was a 31 minute discrepancy between the clocks, but does that automatically mean the discrepancy between the clocks is equal to the amount of time it took the missile to land?

For instance, if the missile was shot at 2:00 but didn't land until 10 minutes later, could the clocks STILL be 31 minutes apart when checked?

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2008, 09:05:40 PM »

If the clocks were not synchronized, then maybe the island is 31 minutes in the past from the rest of the world. It would explain why Regina said the rocket hit its target, but it didn't show up on the island until 31 minutes later. Radio waves and sound waves could allow for the "real-time" convos between past and present (or present and future), without realizing that the person we're talking to is literally of another time. (I think there was even a movie about this lol...called "Frequency" or something. Had a guy talking to his own father back from the 60's, I believe, but neither of them realized it at first)...

That wouldn't explain the clocks, though lol...

The clocks were synchronized, and the rocket 'flew' for 28 seconds.  All else is an issue of perception of space-time from outside & within the anomaly.

Offline footballmom10

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2008, 09:17:10 PM »
The point of the missile is time distortion coming to or leaving the island, radio waves coming and going without distortion, and an inversion of direction in entry vector (almost like the island was a mirror....mirrored realities).

All of these calculations regarding the speed of the missile and etc. are fruitless.  The original script called for the missile to fly for 31 seconds but got changed because minutes seemed more dramatic.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2008, 11:06:53 PM »
So why did Regina say the missile reached its target some 25 seconds after it was launched? Wouldn't she have noticed some weird sh*t going on as she was tracking it? Or would she have lost track of it once it got screwed with by the island?

Offline footballmom10

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Re: Fastest Missile ever!
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2008, 11:25:12 PM »
Einstein thought deeply about the idea of simultaneity.  From Regina's perspective, the rocket hit in twenty five seconds or whatever and from Dan's....31 minutes....and from the rockets.....31 minutes. 

What is contrary to relativity in this discussion is the fact that from Dan's perspective, his watch should have read 25 seconds or whatever, but from the stationary observer, it took 31 minutes.

However, if we assume that Dan the one moving and we switch our thoughts to "when will Dan reach the missile?"  then we get closer to the time paradox.  But, here, Dan would have recorded 25 seconds or whatever and the missile's clock 31 minutes.  That did not occur, plus you have the fact that the radiowaves (also effected by relativity) were unchanged.  If you communicate with objects far away, you have pauses in the discussion as the signal goes back and forth (voyager).  If you communicate with objects travelling very quickly (light speeds), then you have to adjust your receiving frequency higher (converging) or lower (diverging) due to doppler influences.

Thank you.  Footballmom's husband signing off.

He is such a show off. :P :P :P