Author Topic: The Truth  (Read 9469 times)

Offline Maxor127

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2008, 11:03:21 AM »
I've always thought there was some truth behind his claim that he's one of the good guys too.  In fact, I'd be disappointed if him and the Others are the baddest of the bad we're going to see on this show.  Now Abaddon, he seems like a bad guy.

I think the writers are purposely messing around with us with the whole follow Locke/follow Jack thing.  I know I personally would've sided with Locke, and I probably still do.  But, Hurley's comment in his flashforward about how he should've gone with Jack to begin with makes me worried that Locke does something really dumb (again) and something bad is going to happen to them.  But then we know at least Hurley and Jack want to go back and feel like it was a mistake to leave.  Jack himself is a huge wreck and seems to indicate that they (the Oceanic 6) all made a huge mistake.

Offline Ladybug

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2008, 11:18:40 AM »
I still think that Ben really believes that he is 'the good guy' and that whatever he is doing, he is doing for the greater good. He and his people are protecting the world from something on the island, or vice versa. I think we will find out in the end that Ben is right and bad things happen when the real world clashes with the island.

I think it's difficult to pick sides because they keep changing. But I believe we have seen that many Losties are already gravitating to the "Ben" side and I tend to put my money there too.
I agree!
I got yelled at for saying that way back when....
:-\
i agree too!  i think ben THINKS he's good (and is in his own mind).

Offline lostfan777

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2008, 12:14:49 PM »
I have changed my mind over time about Ben.  At first I thought he was evil, an antichrist even, but now I see him as doing what he feels must be done for the greater good.  My only problem has been that I don't know why he has been lying to the Others time and again.  At first I thought the Others' goals were righteous and Ben was secretly working against them by imprisoning Jacob and keeping the Others in the dark while pushing his own agenda, but I no longer believe that 100%. 

Maybe he is truly trying to save the world, but he is flawed and knows that he is not the one to lead the Others, not the One they have been waiting for.  I don't think Locke is the One either.  He is trying too hard to be the spiritual leader and if 'the island' wanted him to be in charge, he would be.  Maybe when future Jack sobers up and figures out how to 'get baaaaaack', he will step up and fill the void.

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2008, 04:51:24 PM »
The theme of redemption on Lost is not to be taken lightly.  That's where it constantly keeps flexing its moral muscle.  People aren't ever getting off the hook on the show because they say, "I did it my way."  They are off the hook when they are forgiven by an outside mediatary. 

 - not "Everyone is making moral judgments in a larger context that will be explained away later."

I don't disagree that redemption is a crucial theme.  But deciding what constitutes redemptions is fraught with our Roshomon-esque to agree when redemption has been achieved.  I mention in another thread that Kate seems to have beat her fugitive wrap upon returning to the US as an Oceanic 6.  If she achieves society's forgiveness for her actions as a fugitive, it aint over yet.  Her next challenge will be to accept a 'normal life'.  Which she may fail utterly.  So, redemption can by as fuzzy as the distinction between good & evil.

There's also the whole individual vs. the group theme.  The philosopher John Locke spoke about the social contract we must agree to in order to live in society.  Without fail we must give up individual liberty to do so.  And submit to the needs of the group.  But how to organize the group, and who is to do it? Ben has accepted the mantle of leadership, and he's had lots of time to get proficient at it. As opposed to Jack's leadership abilities, still letting his emotions control his actions (i.e. pulling the trigger on Locke).

So while there may have been a suggestion of a pure tabula rasa upon reaching the island, perhaps that was a false, or merely temporary, impression.  The individual inevitably can not escape the pull of the tribe. Except, perhaps, Rousseau these last 16 years...


Offline LouE68

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2008, 11:57:06 PM »
The theme of redemption on Lost is not to be taken lightly.  That's where it constantly keeps flexing its moral muscle.  People aren't ever getting off the hook on the show because they say, "I did it my way."  They are off the hook when they are forgiven by an outside mediatary. 

 - not "Everyone is making moral judgments in a larger context that will be explained away later."

I don't disagree that redemption is a crucial theme.  But deciding what constitutes redemptions is fraught with our Roshomon-esque to agree when redemption has been achieved.  I mention in another thread that Kate seems to have beat her fugitive wrap upon returning to the US as an Oceanic 6.  If she achieves society's forgiveness for her actions as a fugitive, it aint over yet.  Her next challenge will be to accept a 'normal life'.  Which she may fail utterly.  So, redemption can by as fuzzy as the distinction between good & evil.

There's also the whole individual vs. the group theme.  The philosopher John Locke spoke about the social contract we must agree to in order to live in society.  Without fail we must give up individual liberty to do so.  And submit to the needs of the group.  But how to organize the group, and who is to do it? Ben has accepted the mantle of leadership, and he's had lots of time to get proficient at it. As opposed to Jack's leadership abilities, still letting his emotions control his actions (i.e. pulling the trigger on Locke).

So while there may have been a suggestion of a pure tabula rasa upon reaching the island, perhaps that was a false, or merely temporary, impression.  The individual inevitably can not escape the pull of the tribe. Except, perhaps, Rousseau these last 16 years...



a quote from Mat Fox:
 "I think the idea of hero or good guy, bad guy is sort of an antiquated notion in a lot of respects. I think it's more interesting to accept the complexity of all of us and hope that he makes heroic choices in very difficult circumstances."

Offline laklost

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2008, 11:59:33 PM »
The theme of redemption on Lost is not to be taken lightly.  That's where it constantly keeps flexing its moral muscle.  People aren't ever getting off the hook on the show because they say, "I did it my way."  They are off the hook when they are forgiven by an outside mediatary. 

 - not "Everyone is making moral judgments in a larger context that will be explained away later."

I don't disagree that redemption is a crucial theme.  But deciding what constitutes redemptions is fraught with our Roshomon-esque to agree when redemption has been achieved.  I mention in another thread that Kate seems to have beat her fugitive wrap upon returning to the US as an Oceanic 6.  If she achieves society's forgiveness for her actions as a fugitive, it aint over yet.  Her next challenge will be to accept a 'normal life'.  Which she may fail utterly.  So, redemption can by as fuzzy as the distinction between good & evil.

There's also the whole individual vs. the group theme.  The philosopher John Locke spoke about the social contract we must agree to in order to live in society.  Without fail we must give up individual liberty to do so.  And submit to the needs of the group.  But how to organize the group, and who is to do it? Ben has accepted the mantle of leadership, and he's had lots of time to get proficient at it. As opposed to Jack's leadership abilities, still letting his emotions control his actions (i.e. pulling the trigger on Locke).

So while there may have been a suggestion of a pure tabula rasa upon reaching the island, perhaps that was a false, or merely temporary, impression.  The individual inevitably can not escape the pull of the tribe. Except, perhaps, Rousseau these last 16 years...



a quote from Mat Fox:
 "I think the idea of hero or good guy, bad guy is sort of an antiquated notion in a lot of respects. I think it's more interesting to accept the complexity of all of us and hope that he makes heroic choices in very difficult circumstances."


Holy mackerel, that was a good one, Cowboy!  Exactly.  Heroic choices on a personal, relational, societal, national, worldwide level. 

Offline T Mack

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2008, 02:24:56 PM »
I've always thought there was some truth behind his claim that he's one of the good guys too.  In fact, I'd be disappointed if him and the Others are the baddest of the bad we're going to see on this show.
Ben is bad, but only out of context.  He will be shown to have good intentions but doing really bad things to make sure those intentions are realized.  For Ben, the end justifies the means, and he will do anything to make sure the end game is realized in his favor.

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2008, 03:53:18 PM »
I must admit I've been mulling over my Ben, and something he did disturbs me.  Not disturbing in terms of bad or evil, but in the sense that it showed him possibly losing control.  And whatever he does or doesn't do, Ben is all about steadfastness of purpose. The event in question was his command to the raiding party when he accelerated his timetable: kidnap the women and kill all the men.  Was that a cost-benefit decision, like those often seen in the Old Testament? Or was it an emotional over-reaction akin to Jack pulling the trigger on Locke? If the raiding party had been successful, then his future hitman Sayid would've been unavailable to take the job.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2008, 04:07:53 PM »
I must admit I've been mulling over my Ben, and something he did disturbs me.  Not disturbing in terms of bad or evil, but in the sense that it showed him possibly losing control.  And whatever he does or doesn't do, Ben is all about steadfastness of purpose. The event in question was his command to the raiding party when he accelerated his timetable: kidnap the women and kill all the men.  Was that a cost-benefit decision, like those often seen in the Old Testament? Or was it an emotional over-reaction akin to Jack pulling the trigger on Locke? If the raiding party had been successful, then his future hitman Sayid would've been unavailable to take the job.

Remember that he had just discovered that Juliet told them about the Looking Glass.  He had to assume that she may have confessed to why she was really there with jack (she did).  The Losties may have known they were coming (they did).  His order was that if Juliet did not mark the tents of the pregnant women as she was sent to do, the raiders should take all the women and if anyone gets in the way, kill them.  Desperate?  Yeah.  Disturbing?  Yeah.

I'm with you, I was a little disturbed by this one because I've been thinking that Ben has a higher purpose and alot of what he has done will end up being for the ultimate benefit of many.  But killing a bunch of people to further their fertility experiments?  There would have to be a better way.  I'm starting to doubt my own theories because if they are truly working for a 'higher power', why can't the Others just tell the Losties (who up until now, haven't exactly been able to run and tell anyone, anyway) and try to enlist them in their cause?

Maybe the answer is simple, it just wasn't in the script!

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2008, 04:54:20 PM »
This may be a commentary on leadership.  When you let your emotions get the best of you, you tend to make bad choices (Jack pulling trigger on Locke).  When information becomes thin, and key variables start going beyond your control, you also make bad choices (Ben using the shotgun approach, saying to kill them all).  Unlike with past operations (going undercover as Henry Gale, sending in Juliet to join the Losties) the guided-missile approach was not longer on the table, so Ben had to start dropping the dumb-bombs out the B-52 doors.

I tend to think there is more to Ben's motivation than just fertility experiments.  Now, knowing that the Boaties are out there, security of the island has become paramount.  As to why he just didn't assimilate the Losties, perhaps it's like an immigration debate: absorbing up to a certain percentage (Cindy, the kids) is doable.  But past a certain point, you lose control of the levels of power, as your identity and purpose begin to shift. 

Another way to look at it, from the recent discussion of pirate utopias, is that the Others have developed their own temporary autonomous zone, where the rules and mores are vastly different. Why, Locke had to kill his father to be accepted.  Ben surely realizes that most of the Losties just aint capable of changing that much to join their group.  And perhaps brainwashing is of limited use (can't have everyone being a sheeplike automaton).

Finally, perhaps Ben is making a tough call to protect the limited resources of the island.  Maybe he knows the food drops have come to an end.  To avoid a Malthusian crash preceded by hungry, attacking Losties, he must lower the island population now to prevent calamity.  I think we'll find out this week that there are indeed violent elements on the boat capable of wiping out everyone on the island (don't forget the gas mask cache that Daniel tried to explain away, poorly). 

Offline lostfan777

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2008, 08:17:57 PM »
This may be a commentary on leadership.  When you let your emotions get the best of you, you tend to make bad choices (Jack pulling trigger on Locke).  When information becomes thin, and key variables start going beyond your control, you also make bad choices (Ben using the shotgun approach, saying to kill them all).  Unlike with past operations (going undercover as Henry Gale, sending in Juliet to join the Losties) the guided-missile approach was not longer on the table, so Ben had to start dropping the dumb-bombs out the B-52 doors.

I tend to think there is more to Ben's motivation than just fertility experiments.  Now, knowing that the Boaties are out there, security of the island has become paramount.  As to why he just didn't assimilate the Losties, perhaps it's like an immigration debate: absorbing up to a certain percentage (Cindy, the kids) is doable.  But past a certain point, you lose control of the levels of power, as your identity and purpose begin to shift. 

Another way to look at it, from the recent discussion of pirate utopias, is that the Others have developed their own temporary autonomous zone, where the rules and mores are vastly different. Why, Locke had to kill his father to be accepted.  Ben surely realizes that most of the Losties just aint capable of changing that much to join their group.  And perhaps brainwashing is of limited use (can't have everyone being a sheeplike automaton).

Finally, perhaps Ben is making a tough call to protect the limited resources of the island.  Maybe he knows the food drops have come to an end.  To avoid a Malthusian crash preceded by hungry, attacking Losties, he must lower the island population now to prevent calamity.  I think we'll find out this week that there are indeed violent elements on the boat capable of wiping out everyone on the island (don't forget the gas mask cache that Daniel tried to explain away, poorly). 

I've been kinda rootin' for Ben for awhile now :o so I'll agree with your ideas because they help out my total theory (fingers crossed).  Thanks!

Offline laklost

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2008, 12:03:39 AM »
Good luck with Ben, guys.  The only reason Ben has been so steadfast is because his megalomania is fed by his control of the island's powers and resources.  If we find out he has something to his emotional life besides the doll he got from Annie and the rush he gets from manipulating people, then I'll agree he is serving a higher purpose.  He's serving his purposes and hiding behind the island.  When Jacob is free, Ben will not be.

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2008, 06:36:28 AM »
We need all the luck we can get!  For what are the odds that, in the end, TPTB will choose the manipulative SOB as the island's true sweetheart over a fan favorite, like Jack or Locke?  Perhaps we're just suckers for long shots. I just hope Michael Emerson sticks around the show for as long as possible.  He's a joy to watch, much like Brad Dourif in Aliens: Resurrection.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2008, 10:58:35 AM »
We need all the luck we can get!  For what are the odds that, in the end, TPTB will choose the manipulative SOB as the island's true sweetheart over a fan favorite, like Jack or Locke?  Perhaps we're just suckers for long shots. I just hope Michael Emerson sticks around the show for as long as possible.  He's a joy to watch, much like Brad Dourif in Aliens: Resurrection.

Why can't we have BOTH Ben and Jack as heroes in the end, or at least until almost the end.  I think ultimately Ben will get killed (he's pissed off too many powerful people), maybe he's in the coffin, who knows?  I see Jack taking the reigns before it's over.  We already know he wants to go baaaack.  He'll get there eventually.  I think Locke will come to a point where he has to sacrifice himself for the island.  And that kid Aaron, he's going to be important to more people than Kate and Jack.

Offline Walkabout

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Re: The Truth
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2008, 12:03:51 PM »
Just a couple of randomly strung together thoughts about "The Truth". Theologically speaking, in reference to Character symbolism, I believe Jack is the Island's Savior. Afterall he is the son of Christian Sheppard and oddly enough Jack Sheppard is a healer of people. He has also been the "Lostie Flock's" sheppard(bad pun intended) albeit reluctantly at first.Naomi even jested he was playing Moses and things said in jest often carry some level of truth.  Ben is the caretaker of the Island and he is fighting for it's survival while searching for it's true savior. He hoped Locke would be "The One" but it appears he is not. You can see it in Ben's eyes and hear it in his carefully selected words when he is engaged with Jack. He needs Jack to leave for his "forty days and forty nights" to experience his trials and tribulations and return to island and strike down the Island's enemies delivering it salvation. Or it could be my percocets talking.