Author Topic: Two external organizations working against each other continued  (Read 7038 times)

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2008, 03:20:36 PM »
If it is Ben & the Others vs. The Conglomerate, I'd imagine that among all the Dharma experiments, some had reached a point of having commercial value.  During his off-island pilgrimages, when not whacking his enemies, perhaps Ben has been peddling the technological fruits of the island to earn the cash needed to bankroll his island protection campaign.

Ben = The Last King of Scotland

Offline LostAndSeek

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2008, 04:37:36 PM »
I'm thinkin' the source of the money is the Island. There may have been something of value on the Black Rock. Or maybe Ben sells cancer cures. Come away with me for a week and your cancer will go into indefinite remission. Just one megabuck. Step right up.


Offline Gmonkey

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2008, 02:00:08 AM »
I'm thinkin' the source of the money is the Island. There may have been something of value on the Black Rock. Or maybe Ben sells cancer cures. Come away with me for a week and your cancer will go into indefinite remission. Just one megabuck. Step right up.



yea, i cant say that I've seen any marijuana crops..or the dharma weed station  :P

Offline PrincessLeia

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2008, 03:30:08 PM »

I keep getting the feeling that this is a battle between two large, multinational corporations over the resources of the island that are considered to be invaluable. 

Thoughts?

I agree. I read an article once about how family corporations inevitably fail to survive the grandchildren of its founders.  By the third generation, power and control are so diffuse and riven by faction that the corporation either fails or is sold off, becoming a public corporation.  I think the alliance between Hanso/Widmore/Paik has reached a similar crossroads.  But since they can't sell their hidden jewel, they're fighting over it in back alleys using surrogates (Ben, Mittelos Biosciences, Abaddon, Henry Gale, the Boaties).

my thoughts are that i love this, we know widmore has had connections to the island for sometime, (henry gale and his balloon)

This brings up an interesting point. When, exactly, did this feud between two corporate houses commence?  I had thought that Ben was successfully deceiving his 'bosses' off the island, getting them to believe that the Dharma Initiative was still operational on the island. But I had forgotten that Henry Gale had been caught (and killed?) by Ben/the Others. I'd suggest that Henry was sent to spy on Ben from the balloon, much like the Union Army used balloons during the Civil War to spy on the Conferderate Army. Maybe Henry wasn't supposed to touch down, instead stay safely in the air & observe.  But the island is cunning...

The balloon incident suggests that perhaps there had been a cold war for a while, as one side tried to gather more information, but that with the Freighter, it has hotted up.  As to who comprises each side in this corporate feud, we don't have enough information. Which means the writers have some freedom to fashion its particulars later on.

well we dont know for sure if henry was killed, he could have died while the balloon crashed, he was buried right next to the ballooon as they found his ID in his grave, (when confronting Ben in the Swan)

i feel like if they killed him, he was probably alive and well after the balloon had crashed, hence he probably would have explored the island a bit moving away from the balloon

i think he died in from the crash


OOH OOH, No, remember?  When Sayid comes in and they held Ben up to the wall he points out that in the balloon Henry Gales pocket there is money that he wrote on about what they were doing on the island!!!
Right.  It's safe to assume that he had contact with the Others.

I'm thinkin' the source of the money is the Island. There may have been something of value on the Black Rock. Or maybe Ben sells cancer cures. Come away with me for a week and your cancer will go into indefinite remission. Just one megabuck. Step right up.
In "The Man from Tallahassee," Locke calls Ben a hypocrite, menaing that while Ben wasn't remaining true to the original mission of the DI, we was still benefitting from its resources.  He's a hypocrite for taking Hanso's money for his own personal agenda (money?  Power?  What he believes to be a paramount purose?) all these years while manipulating others into believing that DHG is evil.

Food drops are one thing, but the fact that Dharma was still actively recruiting AFTER the Purge is what I find intriguing.  Kelvin was recruited by Dharma....Juliet was recruited by Mittelos Bioscience.  Mittelos is too close to Mittelwerk to ignore.  I think that the man on the boat very well may be Mittelwerk.  He's the missing link between DHG & the Others, & he mysteriously disappeared after his evils were exposed & Hanso regained control of The Hanso Foundation.

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2008, 08:58:56 PM »
In "The Man from Tallahassee," Locke calls Ben a hypocrite, menaing that while Ben wasn't remaining true to the original mission of the DI, we was still benefitting from its resources.  He's a hypocrite for taking Hanso's money for his own personal agenda (money?  Power?  What he believes to be a paramount purose?) all these years while manipulating others into believing that DHG is evil.

From everything we've seen, Ben is a true believer dedicated to his purposes.  And we don't see him driving around in a Rolls Royse and bathing in piles of gold with a harem of beautiful starlets.  I think Locke was speaking from a place of ignorance. Maybe jealousy.  It surely would have been foolish for Ben to pull a Thoreau and go live in a shack by a pond eating wild elderberries and eschewing the resources available to him.  He uses every tool he can, like a pentultimate Machiavellian.

Food drops are one thing, but the fact that Dharma was still actively recruiting AFTER the Purge is what I find intriguing.  Kelvin was recruited by Dharma....Juliet was recruited by Mittelos Bioscience.  Mittelos is too close to Mittelwerk to ignore.  I think that the man on the boat very well may be Mittelwerk.  He's the missing link between DHG & the Others, & he mysteriously disappeared after his evils were exposed & Hanso regained control of The Hanso Foundation.

Kelvin was likely recruited by Dharma, and was left alone in The Swan post-purge to continue the critical function of pushing the button.  Mittelos strikes me now as a total front operation, a facade there merely to recruit Juliet.  How hard would it be to rent a vacant office building in an office park for the recruitment presentation, then hire a few actors to make Herarat Aviation look like a high-security facility, just prior to rendering Juliet unconscious for whatever means of transportation used to get her to the island. As to who is on the boat, I'd expect that will be revealed next week. I don't believe Mittlewerk would be bobbing around the S. Pacific for weeks on end.  He'd have sent a surrogate.  And if he were on the boat, he likely would've been the first one on the chopper.

I did a little more reading up on Mittlewerk's background at:

http://lost-tv.tribe.net/thread/65b4c489-fbb6-4b64-a81f-d106c1a1cae7

If I were the Producers, I wouldn't bring out such a character until nearly the end of the series, as an ultimate bad guy.  In terms of where he fits, he could be but a part of the shifting alliances of relevant parties all trying to get back on the island.  Ergo, there could be multiple players, with more than just two alliances, which Ben is attempting to manipulate.

Offline msdoran

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2008, 12:55:02 PM »
I love the notion of organizations fighting for the island, but wouldnt you think that after 30 years (at least) the island would have better security than smokey - who, by the way, seems to be taking holiday leave at the moment

It does have good security, it is 30 minutes in the future, and almost impossible to get to. the only way to get there seems to be: Safely - Underwater in a sub, or else you literally have to fall out of a sky, or wash up after a shipwreck.

I think what may have happened is that once the purge was complete the others had control over who could, and could not come and go to the island. The external organizations were simply being patient, and biding their time. Hence the excitement when the portugese up north saw a brief flicker when the Swan imploded, the location was finally revealed.

Don't forget that information is lost over the generations, such as how to succesfully rebuild a country after a war. We were brilliant in WWII, and have not been able to figure it out since.

Offline msdoran

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2008, 12:57:18 PM »
I love this theory and I totally agree. 

I think Abbadon is working for Hanso (which is a parent company for Widmore, Dharma, Paik, Maxwell etc)  The magnetic blip gave them a view of the island and they want it back.  30 years ago Hanso stole the island from the natives... the natives waited till the right time killed off the on island Hanso (Dharma) people. 

Ben seems to be the mastermind behind Natives movement to keep they're island and keep Hanso away.  Where Ben is getting his $ from is a mystery... I'm leaning towards him being a master con man.  Remember what he said to Sawyer when he revealed the Hydra station was on an Alcatraz type island.  "You may be good, but we're better".

 Maybe it's as simple as that.  Hanso vs Ben  :-\
Interesting perspective, but how then has Ben been able to build such a substantial external (off the island) infrastructure? There is so much we don't know, perhaps there are valuable reserves somewhere on the island that directly result in off island cash. all I know is that private airports and submarines don't come cheap.

Offline PrincessLeia

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2008, 03:36:30 PM »
I love this theory and I totally agree. 

I think Abbadon is working for Hanso (which is a parent company for Widmore, Dharma, Paik, Maxwell etc)  The magnetic blip gave them a view of the island and they want it back.  30 years ago Hanso stole the island from the natives... the natives waited till the right time killed off the on island Hanso (Dharma) people. 

Ben seems to be the mastermind behind Natives movement to keep they're island and keep Hanso away.  Where Ben is getting his $ from is a mystery... I'm leaning towards him being a master con man.  Remember what he said to Sawyer when he revealed the Hydra station was on an Alcatraz type island.  "You may be good, but we're better".

 Maybe it's as simple as that.  Hanso vs Ben  :-\
Interesting perspective, but how then has Ben been able to build such a substantial external (off the island) infrastructure? There is so much we don't know, perhaps there are valuable reserves somewhere on the island that directly result in off island cash. all I know is that private airports and submarines don't come cheap.
Right.  It's not Jurassic Park, after all.  I really think he's still taking advantage of The Hanso Foundation's funding of the Dharma Initiative.

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2008, 05:21:23 PM »
I love the notion of organizations fighting for the island, but wouldnt you think that after 30 years (at least) the island would have better security than smokey - who, by the way, seems to be taking holiday leave at the moment

It does have good security, it is 30 minutes in the future, and almost impossible to get to. the only way to get there seems to be: Safely - Underwater in a sub, or else you literally have to fall out of a sky, or wash up after a shipwreck.

I think what may have happened is that once the purge was complete the others had control over who could, and could not come and go to the island. The external organizations were simply being patient, and biding their time. Hence the excitement when the portugese up north saw a brief flicker when the Swan imploded, the location was finally revealed.

Don't forget that information is lost over the generations, such as how to succesfully rebuild a country after a war. We were brilliant in WWII, and have not been able to figure it out since.

I like the idea that the external powers-that-be could access the island no longer post-purge, and so were biding their time.  Whether the island is 31 minutes ahead, is not perfectly clear yet.  However, if that were true, then that would offer the perfect means to earn all the necessary hard currency Ben could need to implement his nefarious schemes: arbitrage.  If he has foreknowledge that a stock, or a market, will take a huge dive, he can 'sell short', and make a bundle. Or the other option, that he's peddling to the highest bidder the technological marvels that the Dharma Initiative was working on.

As for information lost over the generations, surely Information & Library Science can speak to how, no matter what you do, information and information storage media degrade over time. But I think the case you cite was a wilfull disregard for historical information, as it was viewed by the decision-makers as politically and ideologically suspect, and thus marginalized/ignored.

Lately I'd been thinking how odd it is that no governments seem to be involved at all in the race for the island.  Sure, corporations have become strong challengers to the purview of national governments, but to not have caught wind of it at all, with their NSAs, Mossads, Echelons, warrantless wiretapping, etc.? Perhaps because the writers simply know that if, say, the US Military were to take over, the story'd become totally derivative and uninteresting.

Maybe the true evil force Ben is fighting against, which is seeking to take over the island as the last power standing in the way of its total world-domination, is Google.

Offline msdoran

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2008, 01:40:10 PM »
I love the notion of organizations fighting for the island, but wouldnt you think that after 30 years (at least) the island would have better security than smokey - who, by the way, seems to be taking holiday leave at the moment

It does have good security, it is 30 minutes in the future, and almost impossible to get to. the only way to get there seems to be: Safely - Underwater in a sub, or else you literally have to fall out of a sky, or wash up after a shipwreck.

I think what may have happened is that once the purge was complete the others had control over who could, and could not come and go to the island. The external organizations were simply being patient, and biding their time. Hence the excitement when the portugese up north saw a brief flicker when the Swan imploded, the location was finally revealed.

Don't forget that information is lost over the generations, such as how to succesfully rebuild a country after a war. We were brilliant in WWII, and have not been able to figure it out since.

I like the idea that the external powers-that-be could access the island no longer post-purge, and so were biding their time.  Whether the island is 31 minutes ahead, is not perfectly clear yet.  However, if that were true, then that would offer the perfect means to earn all the necessary hard currency Ben could need to implement his nefarious schemes: arbitrage.  If he has foreknowledge that a stock, or a market, will take a huge dive, he can 'sell short', and make a bundle. Or the other option, that he's peddling to the highest bidder the technological marvels that the Dharma Initiative was working on.

As for information lost over the generations, surely Information & Library Science can speak to how, no matter what you do, information and information storage media degrade over time. But I think the case you cite was a wilfull disregard for historical information, as it was viewed by the decision-makers as politically and ideologically suspect, and thus marginalized/ignored.

Lately I'd been thinking how odd it is that no governments seem to be involved at all in the race for the island.  Sure, corporations have become strong challengers to the purview of national governments, but to not have caught wind of it at all, with their NSAs, Mossads, Echelons, warrantless wiretapping, etc.? Perhaps because the writers simply know that if, say, the US Military were to take over, the story'd become totally derivative and uninteresting.

Maybe the true evil force Ben is fighting against, which is seeking to take over the island as the last power standing in the way of its total world-domination, is Google.

All good points Lion, as for the military not getting involved the only logical thing I can think of are lobbyists paying off the right people to not make a big deal out of it.  There could be knowledge of the operations at a higher level, but with the way that our Government keeps information compartmentalized, hiding an Island may be a seemingly easy task. Pay off the right people to not make too many inquiries, flag the appropriate files and keywords in the government servers, and if anyone ever gets on the trail and makes an inquiry a message could be sent, and the appropriate senior level person (on the take) could intervene with the whole "black bag" secret classified government project bit.

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2008, 04:26:16 PM »
I understand that, despite many cases to the contrary, secrets can be kept.  I had no clue about it until this week, when I saw a program about the parallel manned US-Soviet space race for the purpose of launching orbital space stations in the 60s/70s to do space reconaissance.  For the US, this was to replace the grounded U2 flights; however, the project was scrubbed once other agencies figured out we could use unmanned spy satellites far more easily & cheaply. 

Maybe the reason Abbadon put together such a 'B Team' is that, for 30 years, the players have avoided A Team agents, as they're more likely to move on to government jobs, other corporations, etc., where they could spread the news about the island.  That could be part of why Ben did the purge, and now won't let people like Juliet & the Losties leave: fear that they'll blab.  So far, it seems the Oceanic 6 have kept their mouths shut. Must be some cover story!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 07:47:48 PM by Lion of Atreides »

Offline msdoran

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2008, 07:42:38 PM »
I understand that, despite many cases to the contrary, secrets can be kept.  I had no clue about it until this week, when I saw about the parallel manned US-Soviet space race for the purpose of launching orbital space stations in the 60s/70s to to space reconaissance.  For the US, this was to replace the grounded U2 flights; however, the project was scrubbed once other agencies figured out we could use unmanned spy satellites far more easily & cheaply. 

Maybe the reason Abbadon put together such a 'B Team' is that, for 30 years, the players have avoided A Team agents, as they're more likely to move on to government jobs, other corporations, etc., where they could spread the news about the island.  That could be part of why Ben did the purge, and now won't let people like Juliet & the Losties leave: fear that they'll blab.  So far, it seems the Oceanic 6 have kept their mouths shut. Must be some cover story!

DUDE!!!! I watched that same Nova special! Wasn't that amazing? and did you see the people who were in it? A former head of NASA, former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff of the military? It is amazing that they kept that secret as long as they did, and the only reason it was discovered was because of an old space suit in a foot locker in a forgotten room at Cape Canaveral.  Amazing. I feel like such a geek when I watch shows like that, glad to see that I am not alone!!!


Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2008, 07:49:16 PM »
I've got the TiVo set to record Nature & Nova, and the phaser set to stun.

Offline lostfan777

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2008, 04:40:12 PM »
I love this theory and I totally agree. 

I think Abbadon is working for Hanso (which is a parent company for Widmore, Dharma, Paik, Maxwell etc)  The magnetic blip gave them a view of the island and they want it back.  30 years ago Hanso stole the island from the natives... the natives waited till the right time killed off the on island Hanso (Dharma) people. 

Ben seems to be the mastermind behind Natives movement to keep they're island and keep Hanso away.  Where Ben is getting his $ from is a mystery... I'm leaning towards him being a master con man.  Remember what he said to Sawyer when he revealed the Hydra station was on an Alcatraz type island.  "You may be good, but we're better".

 Maybe it's as simple as that.  Hanso vs Ben  :-\
Interesting perspective, but how then has Ben been able to build such a substantial external (off the island) infrastructure? There is so much we don't know, perhaps there are valuable reserves somewhere on the island that directly result in off island cash. all I know is that private airports and submarines don't come cheap.
Right.  It's not Jurassic Park, after all.  I really think he's still taking advantage of The Hanso Foundation's funding of the Dharma Initiative.

Don't forget the Black Rock.  Didn't they say in the find815 game that the ship transported slaves and gold?

Offline Lion of Atreides

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Re: Two external organizations working against each other continued
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2008, 06:40:09 PM »
Don't forget the Black Rock.  Didn't they say in the find815 game that the ship transported slaves and gold?

Could've been another non-canonical throwaway line.  Or, maybe Dharma self-funded with part of the gold, and with their mass murder, Ben gained control of the remaining horde.  Very heavy, tho, and hard to transport back to market.  Far easier to take scientific findings/blueprints back, and hawk 'em to your contacts for millions.