Author Topic: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?  (Read 25300 times)

Offline DIZZYBECKSTER

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2008, 09:19:29 AM »
Even though I egged them on, the bet is counterproductive, but I love competition! Cbw420 got me pumped up! CAGE MATCH!!

oK I have calmed down. Just for the record we(the mods) would not make anyone leave the site because of the bet.

THe more people on the site, the happier we are.
shall we sell tickets for the Cage Fight? mebbe we can do a live podcast...??

;)  I'm on CBW's side

Offline Creflo

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2008, 10:23:22 AM »
Quote
And they know Ben.
I think the fact that Miles was holding a picture of Ben shows that he does not know Ben, at least not personally.  He knows about him...maybe Ben gassed his father, Dr. Candle-related-name.  He's certainly pissed at Ben, but why would he need a photo to identify someone if he knows him already?

Quote
but some purposeful duality has been introduced in ther characters.  Why?  That is the right question.

This is a great observation, but would you say it applies to all four Dropees?


One last point.  There is a huge difference between time traveling forward and backwards.  I know we're talking about flashfwd/back here, but for the record these two methods of sci-fi wizardry are worlds apart.  Going to sleep in Carbonite and waking up in the year 3000 is nothing.  Stepping into the body of your past self or creating additional matter by having a clone of yourself in the past, complete with future memories is a Quantum Leap away.

I'm not convinced that Desmond did anything more than:
- divine likely outcomes using Island power to predict Charlie's deaths
- had a lucid, waking experience of alternate pasts brought on by the failsafe which were orchestrated by The Island and told in the person of Ms. Hawking

Neither of these is time travel.

"They flutter behind you your possible pasts...some brighteyed and crazy, some frightened and lost."

Offline puff6962

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #107 on: February 12, 2008, 10:29:46 AM »
Even though I egged them on, the bet is counterproductive, but I love competition! Cbw420 got me pumped up! CAGE MATCH!!

oK I have calmed down. Just for the record we(the mods) would not make anyone leave the site because of the bet.

THe more people on the site, the happier we are.
shall we sell tickets for the Cage Fight? mebbe we can do a live podcast...??

;)  I'm on CBW's side

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Allow me to theorize.

These were all flashbacks. Flashbacks for the four boaties. Flashbacks from a time before they were "recruited" and after flight 815 had originally crashed. A time before we saw the the boaties meet the Losties and after they themselves first left The Island. [dum dum duuuuuum!]

No one on this board inspires me more than Puff. I thoroughly enjoy his wild a creative speculations. They inspire me to think outside the box. Speaking about the boaties: "...some purposeful duality has been introduced in their characters". Boy, are you right.

These four boaties find themselves exactly where our Oceanic 6 are destined to arrive (if they all survive). They managed to escape from The Island and would now give anything to get back. What better group of people to send on a mission back to the Island? Ben knows them. And they know Ben. They know him very well. They didn't have to be tricked into going. They didn't have to be coerced. The obvious cover up attempt hit a little too close to home for all of them and they have their own personal missions to accomplish.

Charlotte first learned of Dharma and their ways when she was first on the island. Now that she has returned to civilization, it is her obsession to learn more about this group. She was not surprised to find the polar bear in the desert. It was just another piece of the puzzle that she has been piecing together for years. She was happy to see that Dharma logo. And did you see how happy she was to be back swimming in the waters of The Island?

The found wreckage of flight 815. It's happening all over again for Dan. He's not as strong as the rest. It's still very fresh in his mind. And it still hurts. He parachuted with a box of gas masks. I think I know why those might come in handy on this island. Just ask Ben's dad.

Frank wasn't the pilot of Oceanic 815. But he was supposed to be. He wanted to be! But he hadn't flown since that first fateful flight that he piloted. You know, the one that crashed on The Island the first time.

Of course Miles wasn't all that surprised to see the Losties or The Island. He had seen it all before. And Miles can see dead people. WTF? You know what? He wasn't able to see dead people before he first landed on the Island. Neither was Jack. Or Hurley. Or Locke or Eko or Ben. But they can now. Miles Straume. Say that 3 times fast.

The only question left in my mind is why were they dressed so wonderfully casual. Franks' Hawaiian shirt is a nice touch, but Dan was actually wearing a tie. A tie!
 

Good reasoning often leads to more questions.  Many in life are uncomfortable with that notion, but I choose not to be.  This is the first attempt I have seen to provide a schema, a broad paradigm, for why these people were shown acting the way they did off--and on--the island.  Congratulations, Mr. Joshzam, you have restored my faith in this board (Also, I would like to thank Mr. Creflo, my producer, my agent, and or course mom and dad....gettin ready for the Oscars you know).

Offline Creflo

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2008, 10:33:41 AM »
Don't take any guff from these swine.

Offline puff6962

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #109 on: February 12, 2008, 10:49:54 AM »
Quote
And they know Ben.
I think the fact that Miles was holding a picture of Ben shows that he does not know Ben, at least not personally.  He knows about him...maybe Ben gassed his father, Dr. Candle-related-name.  He's certainly pissed at Ben, but why would he need a photo to identify someone if he knows him already?

Quote
but some purposeful duality has been introduced in ther characters.  Why?  That is the right question.

This is a great observation, but would you say it applies to all four Dropees?


One last point.  There is a huge difference between time traveling forward and backwards.  I know we're talking about flashfwd/back here, but for the record these two methods of sci-fi wizardry are worlds apart.  Going to sleep in Carbonite and waking up in the year 3000 is nothing.  Stepping into the body of your past self or creating additional matter by having a clone of yourself in the past, complete with future memories is a Quantum Leap away.

I'm not convinced that Desmond did anything more than:
- divine likely outcomes using Island power to predict Charlie's deaths
- had a lucid, waking experience of alternate pasts brought on by the failsafe which were orchestrated by The Island and told in the person of Ms. Hawking

Neither of these is time travel.

"They flutter behind you your possible pasts...some brighteyed and crazy, some frightened and lost."

I have always hated the use of forwards or backs, because--as you point out--the physics and the paradoxes mount quickly.  Instead, think of the whole deal as "Slaughterhouse Five" where time is  irrelevant or, at least, arbitrary.  If you have a device that can "jump" realities along the lines of the Hugh Everett model, then you have an infinite number of worlds/realities.  Such worlds would not be forward or back in time as they coexist beside our own quantum formulation but are, in everyday life, invisible.  If one has a magic box allowing transition to such realities, then--from the perspective of the traveller--time continues on as if along a numbered axis.  The traveller may be back in a reality very similar to our 1930's and may return minutes later an old man.  But from his--the traveler's perspective--seventy years have past.  Is that time travel?  The one difficulty that every work on time encounters is the twin paradox.  No, not the Einsteinian spaceship clock stuff, but instead the notion that there may be two of you there and, if there is not, then how did you enter your twin's head.  That's always where storylines diverge from science and you end up with Dr. Sam Beckett in front of a stage entering the body of a stripper.  Not the usual way that one enters the....well, you get the point.

Anyway, don't worry about the time travel stuff if you've bought into the Hugh Everett model and you don't want to change history.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 10:52:03 AM by puff6962 »

Offline jugdish

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #110 on: February 12, 2008, 10:52:33 AM »
Quote
And they know Ben.
I think the fact that Miles was holding a picture of Ben shows that he does not know Ben, at least not personally.  He knows about him...maybe Ben gassed his father, Dr. Candle-related-name.  He's certainly pissed at Ben, but why would he need a photo to identify someone if he knows him already?

Quote
but some purposeful duality has been introduced in ther characters.  Why?  That is the right question.

This is a great observation, but would you say it applies to all four Dropees?


One last point.  There is a huge difference between time traveling forward and backwards.  I know we're talking about flashfwd/back here, but for the record these two methods of sci-fi wizardry are worlds apart.  Going to sleep in Carbonite and waking up in the year 3000 is nothing.  Stepping into the body of your past self or creating additional matter by having a clone of yourself in the past, complete with future memories is a Quantum Leap away.

I'm not convinced that Desmond did anything more than:
- divine likely outcomes using Island power to predict Charlie's deaths
- had a lucid, waking experience of alternate pasts brought on by the failsafe which were orchestrated by The Island and told in the person of Ms. Hawking

Neither of these is time travel.

"They flutter behind you your possible pasts...some brighteyed and crazy, some frightened and lost."

I have always hated the use of forwards or backs, because--as you point out--the physics and the paradoxes mount quickly.  Instead, think of the whole deal as "Slaughterhouse Five" where time is  irrelevant or, at least, arbitrary.  If you have a device that can "jump" realities along the lines of the Hugh Everett model, then you have an infinite number of worlds/realities.  Such worlds would not be forward or back in time as they coexist beside our own quantum formulation but are, in everyday life, invisible.  If one has a magic box allowing transition to such realities, then--from the perspective of the traveller--time continues on as if along a numbered axis.  The traveller may be back in a reality very similar to our 1930's and may return minutes later an old man.  But from his--the traveler's perspective--seventy years have past.  Is that time travel?  The one difficulty that every work on time encounters is the twin paradox.  No, not the Einsteinian spaceship clock stuff, but instead the notion that there may be two of you there and, if there is not, then how did you enter your twin's head.  That's always where storylines diverge from science and you end up with Dr. Sam Beckett in front of a stage entering the body of a stripper.  Not the usual way that one enters the....well, you get the point.

Anyway, don't worry about the time travel stuff if you've bought into the Hugh Everett model and you don't want to change history.



Ahhh yeah, they were flashbacks.

Offline lostandfree

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #111 on: February 12, 2008, 05:20:54 PM »
They were flashbacks.  I still don't believe they would do forwards and backs in the same episode and Naomi's was clearly a flashback.  You say it was a flash forward because Dan was crying, yet showed no reaction when he got to island.  Well he didn't see that on the news and hop over to the island the next day.  We don't know how much time passed before they left on their mission.  Any number of things could have been explained to Dan or to all three of them that would explain their island reactions.  We don't have enough information right now to form these opinions yet.  I mean we're only on the second episode for crying out loud.

Also, we've never questioned before whether we were watching a flash forward or a flashback.  It was always obvious it was a flash back.  At the end of season three we didn't know right away that it was a flash forward but it was made clear to us at the end.  I don't think they would try to trick us now and make it so confusing that it would cause a four hundred page debate on whether it was a FF or FB.  There is enough mystery and confusion already in the show just through the general storyline.  All they wanted to do was give us a brief glance at these new characters that were being introduced.

And all the "normal" people watching this show are not aware of this insane debate and are most likely assuming it was a flashback.  If they mixed both into one show it would make it too hard for the "normals" to follow along and I don't think they want to do that.

Offline Ladybug

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #112 on: February 12, 2008, 05:22:59 PM »
well said lostandfree, well said.  i agree!

Offline T Mack

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2008, 05:24:05 PM »

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 05:41:21 PM by T Mack »

Offline cbw420

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2008, 05:39:44 PM »
They were flashbacks.  I still don't believe they would do forwards and backs in the same episode and Naomi's was clearly a flashback.  You say it was a flash forward because Dan was crying, yet showed no reaction when he got to island.  Well he didn't see that on the news and hop over to the island the next day.  We don't know how much time passed before they left on their mission.  Any number of things could have been explained to Dan or to all three of them that would explain their island reactions.  We don't have enough information right now to form these opinions yet.  I mean we're only on the second episode for crying out loud.

Also, we've never questioned before whether we were watching a flash forward or a flashback.  It was always obvious it was a flash back.  At the end of season three we didn't know right away that it was a flash forward but it was made clear to us at the end.  I don't think they would try to trick us now and make it so confusing that it would cause a four hundred page debate on whether it was a FF or FB.  There is enough mystery and confusion already in the show just through the general storyline.  All they wanted to do was give us a brief glance at these new characters that were being introduced.

And all the "normal" people watching this show are not aware of this insane debate and are most likely assuming it was a flashback.  If they mixed both into one show it would make it too hard for the "normals" to follow along and I don't think they want to do that.

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Offline laklost

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #115 on: February 12, 2008, 05:43:03 PM »

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's the NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.

Umm...I'm assuming you don't consider yourself to be in one of these categories, huh?  ::)  Surburbanites?!?!  People in the inner city or the wide open country understand things better?  I don't get it...

Offline cbw420

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #116 on: February 12, 2008, 05:44:24 PM »

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's the NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.

Umm...I'm assuming you don't consider yourself to be in one of these categories, huh?  ::)  Surburbanites?!?!  People in the inner city or the wide open country understand things better?  I don't get it...

i think all those things are lumped into  "not the Lost-nerds posting on every messageboard regarding Lost"

LOL LOL LOL

Offline T Mack

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #117 on: February 12, 2008, 05:49:29 PM »
They were flashbacks.  I still don't believe they would do forwards and backs in the same episode and Naomi's was clearly a flashback.  You say it was a flash forward because Dan was crying, yet showed no reaction when he got to island.  Well he didn't see that on the news and hop over to the island the next day.  We don't know how much time passed before they left on their mission.  Any number of things could have been explained to Dan or to all three of them that would explain their island reactions.  We don't have enough information right now to form these opinions yet.  I mean we're only on the second episode for crying out loud.

Also, we've never questioned before whether we were watching a flash forward or a flashback.  It was always obvious it was a flash back.  At the end of season three we didn't know right away that it was a flash forward but it was made clear to us at the end.  I don't think they would try to trick us now and make it so confusing that it would cause a four hundred page debate on whether it was a FF or FB.  There is enough mystery and confusion already in the show just through the general storyline.  All they wanted to do was give us a brief glance at these new characters that were being introduced.

And all the "normal" people watching this show are not aware of this insane debate and are most likely assuming it was a flashback.  If they mixed both into one show it would make it too hard for the "normals" to follow along and I don't think they want to do that.
Ok, it's a draw.  Naomi's flash was a 'back' (she wasn't dead yet),  Lapidos and Faraday's flashes were 'forwards' (they were upset by something they already KNEW ABOUT, that the crash was faked and that something bad happened on the island), and Miles flash was an 'unknown at this time'.

The whole backbone and architecture of the entire show is based on "flashbacks" and now "flash-forwards".  How could one not believe or understand that the show is about time manipulation, the very thing that the characters are doing in their flashes? (going back and forth).  It's the central theme and overarching theory of what the show is based upon. For some(removed offending language) the theory may be too much for them to even think about, so they get upset when anyone mentions it, because it ruins their world view and forces them to think outside of the box- (how could this be happening? this can't happen?).  That's how cool the show is, it can be happening.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 07:57:21 PM by T Mack »

Offline T Mack

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #118 on: February 12, 2008, 05:51:45 PM »

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's the NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.

Umm...I'm assuming you don't consider yourself to be in one of these categories, huh?  ::)  Surburbanites?!?!  People in the inner city or the wide open country understand things better?  I don't get it...
i.e., Mom trying to watch the show while 3 babies cry and another one burps up supper on her dress.  She doesn't have time to understand the complex side of the show, nor does she need to.

Offline Ladybug

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Re: Were They Flashforwards or Flashbacks?
« Reply #119 on: February 12, 2008, 05:53:10 PM »

Seems like if we dont have enough info on a certain plot in the story yet, that it is automatically said to be caused by two different timelines.  Seems like a crap way out of a real story to me.
 Actually, I see it as just the opposite.  It's much harder to explain altered reality, timelines, or parallel universes. That's the NOT the 'easy way out' AT ALL.

The easy way out is to explain Lost as some dopey love story or character driven novel and get all drippy about Kate's horse or whether she boned Jack or Sawyer.

The writers are constructing a carefully driven story, multi-faceted and multi-layered, which WILL (as Puff says), involve some alteration of time and space.  (the Hawking references, black holes, Mittleoss = Lost Time, etc. are just too obvious not to take at face value), but which will also be able to be understood by the mushy brains of the masses, the suburbanites, the occasional watchers, and the casual viewer.  How they wrap all of that up into a neat little package (and whether or not it will actually work) will be a thing of beauty to behold.

Umm...I'm assuming you don't consider yourself to be in one of these categories, huh?  ::)  Surburbanites?!?!  People in the inner city or the wide open country understand things better?  I don't get it...
i.e., Mom trying to watch the show while 3 babies cry and another one burps up supper on her dress.  She doesn't have time to understand the complex side of the show, nor does she need to.
i think you just described pl to a t and i think she understands the show very well.