Author Topic: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island  (Read 6776 times)

Offline casino

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The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« on: May 03, 2007, 02:42:04 PM »
Okay, I don't know if anyone else found this to be aggravating, but why in the name of all that is good did Locke not follow up with Richard Alpert when he made the comment about remembering why they (the Others) were really there?

Anybody remember that?  They are sitting on the hill, overlooking the camp, and Alpert is telling Locke that Ben is just trying to embarass him (Locke) in front of everyone, and then complains that Ben is wasting their time with issues like fertility and causing them to forget what they were actually trying to accomplish?  I was actually sitting forward in my chair, waiting for Locke to say something like "And what, exactly, would that be?"  Instead, he changes the subject.  I wish he would have followed up, because I have yet to figure out what the overall goal or reason for staying on the Island is for the Others.

I hope that makes sense. 

Anyway, at least I see this as a definite indication that there are two factions of Others, as has been mentioned countless times, and that the split is basically along idealogical lines.

My question:  What do you think those "lines" are?  What is Ben's vision of the future of his little tribe, and how does that differ from what, say, Alpert sees?  For one thing, Ben's vision obviously requires the Others to reproduce and keep up the population.  This doesn't seem to be important to Alpert at all.  Why not?  Does Ben's goal not involve them being on the Island forever?

What brought these people to the Island in the first place?  What was the bait?  What were they told their lives would be like, or what type of reward were they promised that would take them away from their normal lives? Mikhail said that he talked to a "magnificent" man when he was recruited.  What did that man say to him to convince him to dedicate his life to living on the Island?

These are the major questions that I have right now, and I would like to know what you think.   

Offline WhatThe

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2007, 02:49:49 PM »
How about:

Alpert wasn't born on the island...he's not a native of it. Ben was, however..and is actually one of the remaining descendants of whatever race of people populated the island for centuries. But...they're dying out due to not being able to reproduce anymore. So Ben has a much greater emotional stake in things like solving the infertility problem than Alpert does, because Alpert was born in Chicago or wherever  and doesn't have to worry about the population dying out lol...

Or:

Ben knows that he needs the members of his "tribe" to reproduce so that they don't need to recruit nearly as much...he wants the overall plan of Dharma's to grow and prosper, and that can't happen unless their newly made "civilization" can reproduce. However, Alpert, Juliet and whoever else is on their "side" are growing tired of the entire mess and want to just finish what they came there for (Dharma research into electromagnetism, Psychology, etc, etc, and all that stuff there) and then finally go home for good. Ben's more concerned with just keeping everyone there.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 02:51:44 PM by WhatThe »

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2007, 03:00:18 PM »
Good one.  How about this, which builds off your second statement?

The Others were recruited to come to the Island and (they think) discover the secret of how to save the world from the collapse of our societies and/or thermonuclear destruction. They feel the work that they are doing and the community that they are creating on the Island will serve as an example to the outside world, thus diverting the disaster.  When they have unlocked the secrets of the Island and created that community, they will pass this knowledge back to the outside world and their mission will be accomplished.

Ben, on the other hand, believes (or even knows) that it is a "fools errand."  He knows there is no way to change the outcome.  So, he has started to look at the Island as the only place that will survive the upcoming nuclear holocaust and decline of civilization as we know it.  The Island is invisible to the outide world, protected from nuclear weapons by the electromagnetic shiield, and has a vast system of underground tunnels in case of fallout.  So, it's the perfect place to lay low until it is time to re-populate the Earth.  His problem:  They can't seem to re-populate the Island, much less the Earth.  Thus his obsession with the fertility problem.  Alpert and his group are not concerned with it because they could always go off the Island to reproduce, or bring people in from the outside, but Ben knows that they will not be able to continue to do that, so he sees fertility as a HUGE issue.

That's one theory that I feel may be vaild.

Offline CurtYanko

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 03:07:28 PM »
Great question! Some ideas that pop into my head are: Save the world! ...or any kind of religious fulfillment sort of thing.

One more: Having arrived as scientist looking for a scientific solution to the whole 'save the world' problem they slowly start losing members to this spiritual force on the island realizing that science is part of the problem and only through spiritual fulfillment can they change the world in order to save it.

Offline Creflo

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2007, 03:18:04 PM »
The answer is simple: (Their) research is intended to do nothing less than save the world as we know it.





Alright, sure...that was DHARMA's bag and not necessarily The Others'.  However, in all that time they've been on The Island, reading through old DHARMA books, investigating the properties of The Island, kidnapping, conning, experimenting and so on, surely they have this kind of goal in mind.

My bet is that their take on the above quoted DHARMA goal is that their mission is to bring "good ones", train, study, survive, and reproduce so as to save THEMSELVES from a doomed world.

You read it here first.

Offline AstroJones

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 03:53:23 PM »
Well, I think that the Dharma Initiative was certainly on the island in order to "Save the World."  But I think that their methods or efforts strayed to far in the minds of some.  The others are probably nothing more than the scientists that disagreed with the Dharma course of action, or maybe even support staff that began to dispise the scientists.  They defeated or killed most of the original scientists and took on their own goal to save the world, using the islands properties.  But Ben has been slowly leading them astray.  He no longer (or maybe never) believes that the world can be saved, but he's realized that if they can solve the reproduction issues, they can outlive the rest of the world in a utopian society.  That's his goal.  While Other's like Alpert thing that they should begin using the power of the island to "fix" the world.  Only instead of doing crazy unethical experiments, like the Dharma Initiative, they're going to use the Island in conjunction with someone who is specially connected to it (locke).

That's my guess of the moment.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 04:08:33 PM »
I may be the only one who doesn't believe that Dharma originally went to the island to "save the world"...but that it became a reason for them staying there.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 04:10:46 PM by WhatThe »

Offline eelpie62

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 04:08:45 PM »
I think the above stated ideas point straight to Ben's contention that "we're the good guys."
They have also said on more than one occasion that the kidnapped kids are "better off" than they would be on the beach.
If you were convinced in your heart of hearts that killing 100 strangers would absolutely save the world you'd tell anyone who questioned your actions "we're the good guys."
It'll certainly be harder to get someone who's been strung up and left for dead to believe that than someone who was wheelchair bound and now hunts boar and carries dead guys around on his shoulder.

Offline PrincessLeia

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 08:16:33 PM »
Well, I think that the Dharma Initiative was certainly on the island in order to "Save the World."  But I think that their methods or efforts strayed to far in the minds of some.  The others are probably nothing more than the scientists that disagreed with the Dharma course of action, or maybe even support staff that began to dispise the scientists.  They defeated or killed most of the original scientists and took on their own goal to save the world, using the islands properties.  But Ben has been slowly leading them astray.  He no longer (or maybe never) believes that the world can be saved, but he's realized that if they can solve the reproduction issues, they can outlive the rest of the world in a utopian society.  That's his goal.  While Other's like Alpert thing that they should begin using the power of the island to "fix" the world.  Only instead of doing crazy unethical experiments, like the Dharma Initiative, they're going to use the Island in conjunction with someone who is specially connected to it (locke).

That's my guess of the moment.
This is basically my guess, with the twist that I think the Others were island natives that were "support staff" or employed (possibly enslaved) by DHG when they came in & set up camp.  I believe that there was a rebellion from within (by the "worker bees" who believed their ideas to be superior) resulting in "the Purge" which I believe was a civil war of sorts.  While it currently appears that DHG presence is no longer a force on the Island, there may be some (including Alpert) within the Others as we know them, that still support the original integrity of the project.

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2007, 10:25:07 AM »
Well, I think that the Dharma Initiative was certainly on the island in order to "Save the World."  But I think that their methods or efforts strayed to far in the minds of some.  The others are probably nothing more than the scientists that disagreed with the Dharma course of action, or maybe even support staff that began to dispise the scientists.  They defeated or killed most of the original scientists and took on their own goal to save the world, using the islands properties.  But Ben has been slowly leading them astray.  He no longer (or maybe never) believes that the world can be saved, but he's realized that if they can solve the reproduction issues, they can outlive the rest of the world in a utopian society.  That's his goal.  While Other's like Alpert thing that they should begin using the power of the island to "fix" the world.  Only instead of doing crazy unethical experiments, like the Dharma Initiative, they're going to use the Island in conjunction with someone who is specially connected to it (locke).

That's my guess of the moment.
This is basically my guess, with the twist that I think the Others were island natives that were "support staff" or employed (possibly enslaved) by DHG when they came in & set up camp.  I believe that there was a rebellion from within (by the "worker bees" who believed their ideas to be superior) resulting in "the Purge" which I believe was a civil war of sorts.  While it currently appears that DHG presence is no longer a force on the Island, there may be some (including Alpert) within the Others as we know them, that still support the original integrity of the project.

I have a hard time with the "island native" part.  How far back are we talking here?  It seems to me that they would be darker skinned and less European  if they were actually native to the Island, unless we are talking about descendents of the crew of the Black Rock or something like that.  On the one hand, we have Juliet saying that the Others have been on the Island "a long time."  On the other hand, Ben seems to be the only original Other, and he is, what, 40 years old or so?  These are the things that confuse me.

There have definitely been ancient civilizations on the Island, given the ruins....but I don't believe the Others are survivors of those cultures.

Thoughts? 

Offline lostfan777

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2007, 11:51:24 AM »
Creflo- you said "My bet is that their take on the above quoted DHARMA goal is that their mission is to bring "good ones", train, study, survive, and reproduce so as to save THEMSELVES from a doomed world.  You read it here first."  Sorry, I've said that before and I'm sure I wasn't the first, either.

I've said that I believe the properties of the island keep it hidden, and that the Dharma Initiative was set up to solve the various problems of life on the island.  I think Dharma was creating a Utopia to survive the outside world and may have actually been planning to facilitate or expedite the destruction of the world (conspiracy, again!) so that they could then begin again.  I believe Ben may have led a coup, the purge, to take over the island from Dharma.  Having spent his life there, he wants to create a self sustaining society of "Good Ones" and stay forever cut off from the outside world.  He needs to solve the problems of infertility because he never plans on spreading out back to the outside world where it wouldn't be a problem to conceive.  Believing he is righteous, he has no problem with the deaths of "unholy" people for the good of the Others, yet he won't bring himself to break his word.  He would sooner manipulate Locke into blowing up the sub, than break his promise to let Jack leave!  He said something awhile back (I think it was around the time of his surgery and his negotiations with Jack) about not wanting the Others to lose faith in him if they knew he lied.  He seems to be a kind of cult leader. 

Richard on the other hand, may be a hold-out to the old Dharma.  He doesn't care about having babies on the island.  He would love to see Locke return to the Others and make things difficult for Ben.

I think the Others are waiting for "Him", Jacob, as some kind of Messiah or at least a spiritual leader.  I think they believed Locke may be "Him" because he survived his fall and has now spontaneously healed upon arriving at the island, making him "special".  Ben needed to embarrass Locke before the Others got too out of control.  I don't think Jacob exists.  I think Ben or someone before him made him up and Ben is doing what he can to keep the myth going and keep his cult in order.  Juliet received the mark because of what she did, making her an outcast.  Ben seems to have had a thing for her, maybe he was hoping to be able to control her and convince her to want to stay.

The biggest question for me is the six-degrees angle.  Who are the Losties and why were they seemingly brought to the island?  Could they have been chosen by Dharma (the Others DID seem surprised that they had arrived)?  Was there any indication of how long ago the "purge" occurred?

This may be a question for another thread....

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2007, 12:53:28 PM »
Lostfan777,

I sort of lost you.  Dharma was trying to create a Utopia to survive the outside world....if that is Ben's aim, too, then why did he lead a purge of Dharma?  It would seem that they have the same objective?

I see it more logically that Dharma wanted to solve the world's problems in the microcosm of the Island, then pass those findings out to the outside world and save it, while Ben and his faction felt that the outside world was a total loss and couldn't be saved, so it was best for the Island to just stay isolated as much as possible.  Once again, that's why Ben is concerned with the fertility problem and Richard is not.

Say Adam and Eve are, in fact, Ben's parents.  What if they returned to the outside world with Ben, and they died there...maybe as part of some conspiracy or crime or something?  Then, Ben brings them back to the Island, hoping it could revive them, but it doesn't.  So, Ben gets jaded and decides the outside world is a total loss, and decides that Dharma is misguided and decides to take over and focus their efforts solely on surviving on the Island, and the rest of the world be damned.

Sort of like Batman retreating to the Bat Cave after his parents are murdered.  That's just an idea of what might motivate Ben.  There could be other reasons.

I am intrigued by what you said on the spiritual side.  I wonder....when did the mission change from a scientific pursuit to a spiritual pursuit?

Offline PrincessLeia

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 02:10:40 PM »
Well, I think that the Dharma Initiative was certainly on the island in order to "Save the World."  But I think that their methods or efforts strayed to far in the minds of some.  The others are probably nothing more than the scientists that disagreed with the Dharma course of action, or maybe even support staff that began to dispise the scientists.  They defeated or killed most of the original scientists and took on their own goal to save the world, using the islands properties.  But Ben has been slowly leading them astray.  He no longer (or maybe never) believes that the world can be saved, but he's realized that if they can solve the reproduction issues, they can outlive the rest of the world in a utopian society.  That's his goal.  While Other's like Alpert thing that they should begin using the power of the island to "fix" the world.  Only instead of doing crazy unethical experiments, like the Dharma Initiative, they're going to use the Island in conjunction with someone who is specially connected to it (locke).

That's my guess of the moment.
This is basically my guess, with the twist that I think the Others were island natives that were "support staff" or employed (possibly enslaved) by DHG when they came in & set up camp.  I believe that there was a rebellion from within (by the "worker bees" who believed their ideas to be superior) resulting in "the Purge" which I believe was a civil war of sorts.  While it currently appears that DHG presence is no longer a force on the Island, there may be some (including Alpert) within the Others as we know them, that still support the original integrity of the project.

I have a hard time with the "island native" part.  How far back are we talking here?  It seems to me that they would be darker skinned and less European  if they were actually native to the Island, unless we are talking about descendents of the crew of the Black Rock or something like that.  On the one hand, we have Juliet saying that the Others have been on the Island "a long time."  On the other hand, Ben seems to be the only original Other, and he is, what, 40 years old or so?  These are the things that confuse me.

There have definitely been ancient civilizations on the Island, given the ruins....but I don't believe the Others are survivors of those cultures.

Thoughts? 
I know...it's shaky.  lol  I'll 1st say that my statements were based on comments from Tom-"OUR island," Patchy-"They were here for a very long time before we were," etc.  They could have been descendants of the ancient civilization represented by the 4-toed statue or descendants or the Black Rock crew survivors.  The MAIN problem with this is that, we are being led to believe that re-population on the Island doesn't happen, so does that mean that it is impossible that they would have been there longer than 60 years or so (the approximate age of the oldest Other that we've seen) or did Island inhabitants leave to conceive, then come back to deliver?  Seems unlikely.  Ben did state to Juliet that he was not the only one of the Others that was born on the Island.  Also- I'm still wondering if Ben was biologically BORN on the Island or if he was referring to a spiritual re-birth of sorts. 

Ok, so it's REALLY shaky.   :-\ ::) :)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 02:12:40 PM by PrincessLeia »

Offline lostfan777

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 02:28:44 PM »
Casino,

I think we are almost on the same page.  You think Dharma was trying to save the world.  Ben got jaded and gave up on society, working to create a utopia cut off from the outside world, which is why Richard and Ben don't see eye to eye on the pregnancy issue.


My idea was almost the same except that I thought of Dharma as the "evil empire" planning to expedite the end of society and all its evils and start new.  My theory was that Ben would be revealed to be the hero who saved the world from Dharma (without the accolades, because the world never knew what was about to hit it) and now just wants to be left alone in HIS little Utopia cut off from the world and all its ugliness.  He strikes me as a spoiled little genius who, despite his obvious mental dominance, is still timid and naive, and would be happy to never have to deal with "reality".

But now I have to agree with you.  I keep coming back to that polar bear (see my logo), living in a warmer climate (global warming).  If Dharma was so evil as to facilitate a "New World Order", would they give a rat's ass about whether or not they still had polar bears?  Probably not.

Offline casino

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Re: The Other's Reason for Being On the Island
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 04:38:36 PM »
Yeah, I think the polar bears definitely show Dharma's original intention of saving the world.  I think we agree, though, that there is a possibility that Ben may not have a totally philosophical or scientific reason to keep his people isolated on the Island.  It may be that a bad personal experience is leading him to want to cut himself off.  Remember that movie "The Village?"  The people lived basically "Little House on the Prairie" style, and were told that they could not go out of the village because of these monsters in the woods.  When one of them has to leave to get medicine, she finds that the village is actually in a big private forest not far from a modern city, and that the leader of the village's wife was killed in a mugging, and he decided the world was a cruel place and, along with some like-minded folks, retreated to this village and shut themselves off from the world.

Maybe something like that happened to Ben.