Other Other's

[therealsawyer]

Firelily,
Best stories I've ever read - lots of connections!

Finally some others that are seeing the connections too.

Welcome to Ka-tet!

"Remember the face of your father." - LOST implications as well.

[therealsawyer]

Oh Des's "flashes" are similar to the "touch" that Eddie and Cuthbert have.

[FireLily]

Firelily,
Best stories I've ever read - lots of connections!

Finally some others that are seeing the connections too.

Welcome to Ka-tet!

"Remember the face of your father." - LOST implications as well.

Yes, and thank you!  "Long Days and Pleasant Nights."

 

[puff6962]

Dizzybeckster writes:

I get the feeling that Desmonds life is being 'moulded' by someone - why on earth not Dharma? Maybe his whole life has been one big experiment? Each time he follows a career/life path he only lasts a short time, engagement, monkhood, army, button pushing etc - he's not very good at holding anything down. Maybe because it is part of another social experiement to see how far they can push him?

I began this thread with the notion....Other Others....I don't believe that it is Dharma who has guided Desmond.  Ben was, afterall, unaware of the hatch's importance in preventing "events."  Such an event knocked out the Other's communications (except for their walkie talkies) and will prevent their method of travel.  Insight into the importance of Desmond's role would have meant that the Others we know so far would have manned and controlled the hatch.  Instead, the series leads us to believe the Ben and the boys didn't even know about the place or it's role.

Ring lady and father time are part of something we have yet to discover.  They are not, however, part of Ben's crew.

[FireLily]

Dizzybeckster writes:

I get the feeling that Desmonds life is being 'moulded' by someone - why on earth not Dharma? Maybe his whole life has been one big experiment? Each time he follows a career/life path he only lasts a short time, engagement, monkhood, army, button pushing etc - he's not very good at holding anything down. Maybe because it is part of another social experiement to see how far they can push him?

I began this thread with the notion....Other Others....I don't believe that it is Dharma who has guided Desmond.  Ben was, afterall, unaware of the hatch's importance in preventing "events."  Such an event knocked out the Other's communications (except for their walkie talkies) and will prevent their method of travel.  Insight into the importance of Desmond's role would have meant that the Others we know so far would have manned and controlled the hatch.  Instead, the series leads us to believe the Ben and the boys didn't even know about the place or it's role.

Ring lady and father time are part of something we have yet to discover.  They are not, however, part of Ben's crew.

i personally think they might be part of something like "fate" or some master plan that also controls the others.... did that make sense?

[puff6962]

Ya, with their mentoring role, this group of others would appear to be keepers of the island and would thus be diametrically opposed to the manipulations of Ben.  This keepership role would take the form of guiding souls to the island, imparting knowledge of fate, and likely the oversight of the island's powers.  If this separate group does exist, the storyline would likely engender conflict between the two groups of Others.  In battling Ben, they may show themselves, however, to be extremely wise and extremely brutal.

Kurt Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five involves a character base that is able to see in four dimensions.  Time is included in their natural view of a three coodinate world.  The Tralfamadorians know the major events of their life, including the manner of their death, and see life in its totality, "the picture on the box," such that all pieces are known at any time.

I believe that this second group of Others hints of the Tralfamadorians.  They are not confined to this time and have a serene view of life, their work, and fate.

[DaveDargo]

I think Penny could be an other, perhaps she was meant to get Desmond onto the island but somewhere along the line fell in love with Desmond and now is trying to get him back.  I know this is the same as almost every other love story on TV but it could at least explain how forward she was when she met Desmond for the first time.

Of course is that the first time she has met Desmond? She may have been there before and so knew to be forward?

[solost]

I hate to start a new thread, but I have been wondering about why the writer's made such a point to associate Brother Campbell with Ms. Hawking (ring lady).  Further, I have been contrasting these two, who seemingly have a connection with the island with Richard/Ethan.

Campbell/Hawking both derive their names of famous people with a debilitating disease (this pickup courtesy of matahari....kudo's).  The picture upon the monk's desk suggest that they are very familiar with one another.  They appear in roles that have held them in "the real world" for some time.  Ms. Hawking runs a clock/jewelry store, Mr. Campbell is a monk.  They are honest, lay out options, and speak of sacrifice.  Furthermore, they seem both to have knowledge of the future.

Contrast this with Ethan and Richard.  Modern, manipulative, huge money at their disposal, secretive, and mobile.  They recruit instead of guide.  (Their intent was to directly bring somebody to the island, not nudge them in the direction of their fate).  In this respect, they may not have knowledge of the future.

Is this suggestive of two groups of others....One reliant upon mental faculties/faith/sacrifice with some insight into the future while the other is material/scientific/ambitious that seeks to manipulate reality?  Does one group exist only in a spiritual form upon the island ('the whispers') while maintaining a physical presence in the real world and the other group a physical presence upon the island with excursions into the real world?

Additionally, there seems to be a growing number of references and associations between the storyline and the works of Stephen King.  The latest potential link (sorry, don't remember the poster) was to the Talisman.  I've included the paragraph that interested me here:

This book charts the adventure of a twelve year old boy named Jack (Benjamin) Sawyer. The young hero sets out from the East Coast of the USA in a bid to save his mother, who is dying from cancer, by finding an artifact called 'The Talisman'.

The premise of the novel involves the existence of a parallel world to Earth, called 'The Territories' (a strange fantasy world with ties to King's The Dark Tower). Individuals in the Territories have "twinners," or parallel individuals, in our world. Twinners' births, deaths, and (it is intimated) other major life events are usually paralleled, but in rare instances (such as Jack Sawyer's), a person may die in one world but not the other, making them a "single" and giving them the ability to switch back and forth between the two worlds if taught how.

Now, the coincidence of the names alone struck me.  Additionally, the notion of "twinners" is very interesting.  The inability of the Other's to carry a pregnancy to term may be due to the discrepancy with their "twin" off of the island.  I don't know, but if one hopes to see Christian, or even Mikail, again....this theory might have some legs.

In any event, it might explain many issues.   Going way back, it may give some insight into why Rousseau shot her companions....they passed between worlds and she didn't like what came back.  It may also explain how Ben was "born" onto the island.....Ben was just a lowly Dharma toilet cleaner and then parallel Ben took his place.  Further, it makes one wonder whether Kate may have been right when standing on the border of Otherville...."That's not Jack."  Finally, it may explain why Ben could not let any of the women leave the island.

Getting back to the original point, two groups of Others, it would seem that the group we know of as "the Others" (Ben, Tom, Ethan, Nathan.....) may largely be made up of  "singles" and incapable of making babies (and it may be the men, not the women, who are incapable of producing a viable progeny).  The problem would exist because they lack a "twin" upon which to mirror such an event. 

The "singles" are able to pass between worlds (leave the island) whereas the other Other group cannot.  They exist only in whispers upon the island but maintain a physical presence and role in the "real world."  This second group may have had some role in guiding many of the Losties to their fate.  Further, their death in the "real world" would leave open the possibility of their "single" emerging.

The duality would further allow for seemingly common people to be "great men" through the attibutes of their twin.  Thus, Locke may be "him."

This is a very good post....I wonder if the incident that they refer to in the orientation films, somehow closed or distorted the conduit between the two worlds.

[ILoveLost]

My Penny theory is this:  When Desmond went back in time in Flashes, he told Donovan about the island and about the EMP that brought him back in time.  Donovan dismissed it at the time, but when Desmond did infact disappear, Donovan told PENNY what Desmond had said.  This information allowed Penny the time to set up a way to find Desmond - by searching for an EMP pulse.  Thus bringing about the late night phone call from the Portuguese men who were doing just that.  Once the coordinates of the island were known, from the location of the epicenter of the pulse, Penny used all the resources at her disposal - read helicopter, ship to carry said helicopter, and parachuting woman with Desmond's picture -  to attempt to find and rescue Desmond. 

IMHO, talking to Donovan about the island was the thing that Desmond changed when he went back in time.  That is what resonates through time and has changed what Penny has been doing for the past 3 years.

wow...that actually makes a lot of sense, really good point!!!!

[puff6962]

Has anybody stopped to ask why only Desmond had these little plants (at least to our knowledge) guiding him to the island?  What is different/special about Desmond?

Well, the obvious is that DESMOND WAS NOT ON THE PLANE.  Another difference is Desmond's time on the island.   Finally, Desmond was at ground zero during the hatch implosion.

Desmond's precognition began after the latter, so don't expect the losties to all become fortune tellers.

However, Desmond's route to the island was obviously directed and we can't clearly say that for the rest of the crew.

If Ms. Hawking and Father Campbell knew of Desmond's destiny, is it logical to say that they did not know that of the other survivors? 

If we follow the Talisman parallel again, were they aware of Desmond's destiny because they knew it was the same as his "twinner?" 

Continuing, did they not know of the Lostie's because the Lostie's are "singles?"

Finally, are the Lostie's singles because they have crossed over worlds (via the island) after their twins perished in flight 815?

[FireLily]

also, remember in the Talisman, everytime someone caused ANYTHING in the other world, something "happened" in this one?  Like the buildings collapsing, and disasters, that kind of thing?  All consequences and connections.  Perhaps the plane crash had something to do with that too.... and it was just a coincidence that Des didn't push the button that day?  I don't know.... I don't really think that's the case, but it's a possibility.

[matahari]

Puff, nice post! Thanks for the nod. Bad week, took a while to get back to you. Unfortunately, I haven't read much Stephen King. Dark Tower and Talisman are not on my bookshelves?! I guess I have some reading to do.

I have wondered why it is that Ethan and Alpert are "capable" of leaving the Island yet other others are not. Why do some others or other affiliates, be they Dharma, Mittelos, or Widmore stay in the real world while the others are LOST?
Parallel universe. Very Nice!

The Vonnegut "Tralfamadorian" explanation I am familiar with. Read this idea in your Slaughterhouse Five post and LOVE IT.

[cbw420]

My Penny theory is this:  When Desmond went back in time in Flashes, he told Donovan about the island and about the EMP that brought him back in time.  Donovan dismissed it at the time, but when Desmond did infact disappear, Donovan told PENNY what Desmond had said.  This information allowed Penny the time to set up a way to find Desmond - by searching for an EMP pulse.  Thus bringing about the late night phone call from the Portuguese men who were doing just that.  Once the coordinates of the island were known, from the location of the epicenter of the pulse, Penny used all the resources at her disposal - read helicopter, ship to carry said helicopter, and parachuting woman with Desmond's picture -  to attempt to find and rescue Desmond. 

IMHO, talking to Donovan about the island was the thing that Desmond changed when he went back in time.  That is what resonates through time and has changed what Penny has been doing for the past 3 years.

this is probably the best thought i've ever read on this board, and it absolutely pisses me off to no end that i didnt think of that myself lol

[puff6962]

So, whose love is being tested....Desmond or Penny?

[FireLily]

I'd say Desmond....