Author Topic: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit  (Read 9490 times)

Offline LostGirlDeb

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2007, 11:17:03 AM »
I would like to say that I think that even if Charlie had taken the arrow it still would not have made the parachuter be Penny
Everything was already set in motion by the time Charlie got hit by the arrow
I think that it would have to be an event that preceded the  parachute drop or the helicopter crash that could actually alter who it was.  At the point of the arrow either hitting or not hitting Charlie
the person had already landed.
I think it was more of a spiritual realization for Desmond even though he may not know it yet

Offline matahari

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2007, 01:07:37 PM »
Desmond must choose to let charlie die, and Charlie must be complicit in this. Then "God" will spare him in order to complete the metaphor.

Offline Creflo

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2007, 02:28:42 PM »
Something that I think might be being overlooked about "The Abraham Metaphor" is that Abraham's son Isaac (the one he almost killed) was the father of Jacob who begat the 12 Tribes of Israel (including Benjamin).  All this because Abraham passed the 10 tests.

Offline Geronimo Jackson

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2007, 02:35:45 PM »
Something that I think might be being overlooked about "The Abraham Metaphor" is that Abraham's son Isaac (the one he almost killed) was the father of Jacob who begat the 12 Tribes of Israel (including Benjamin).  All this because Abraham passed the 10 tests.

somewhere buried in this site is an excellent post by Des 8 way way far ahead of her time on this theory (and alternate time theory Imight add) explaning all about Abraham and i ssac and how it all ties in..

Offline Geronimo Jackson

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2007, 02:44:51 PM »
okay it took me awhile to find it and boy do Imiss Des 8 posts:  here's one for you Des sweetie:

Quote
Howdy my good friends.  I posted this on the BR on the 12, actually.  It seems to me that the newbies aren't looking at the overall story arc yet--so chew on this.

 

Post subject: Jacob and the E6 Clue
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:38 pm   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In S03E06 we learn that the leader of TheOthers' name is "Jacob."

Here's a brief synopsis of Jacob, according to Biblical stories:

Jacob is the son of Isaac and one of two grandsons of Abraham--Jacob was born to Isaac and Rebeckah and was a twin--his twin's name being Esau. In the womb, Jacob would leap whenever Rebeckah passed a holy temple while Esau would leap whenever she passed a place of pagan idol worship.

According to the Bible, the twins were brought up in the same family environment, taught the same values, the same teachings of Abraham and were treated the same, yet each turned out incredibly different. They not only differed in appearance (Esau was hairy, ruddy--while Jacob was smoothe and handsome). Jacob was kind, loving, good, and a man of faith. Esau was nasty, evil, a worshiper of pagan idols and false prophets.

(Jacob's children ultimately became the heads of the 12 tribes of Isreal--they were chosen by God to lead because they were all righteous, good men of faith.)

How does this pertain to LOST?

If Jacob is the leader of TheOthers, who is the Esau in the plotline? The leader of TheOtherOthers? Perhaps Benry was right when he said "we're the good guys, Michael" and "we're good people" or at least think they are--they are disciples if you will, of Jacob.

So Esau's tribe must be one group of serious bad asses is my guess.

This also fits into my twin idea I've been posting since S1 (even before Bad Twin by Gary Troup, an 815 casualty, came out). The book is the story of one each an evil and a good twin--the Widmore twin boys. So was this really a precursor to the yet undeveloped plotline of LOST?

The Biblical theme to LOST is undeniably there--whether it's the Epic of Gilgamesh and Ekindu (who were friends--one good and reserved, one wildly unruly), Charlie's Madonna dream, MrEko and Yemi, "man of science man of faith" etc. I think each has a twin out there--but do we really know who is good and who is bad?

I have an upcoming post about MOSMOF, complete with screen shots to back up my twin/dual time theory--once I can get those little buggers to post.

So for now, chew on the Jacob/Esau twin clue. It was spoonfed to us a long time ago, but now they're banging us over the head with it to figure it out. Even the title of the S03E01 was "A Tale of Two Cities" which is a reference to "twin cities."

cheers
*Des8

PS) Jacob's 12th son's name was Benjamin. Jack calls Benry "Benjamin" in "The Cost of Living" S03E05. Daniel was the 5th son of Jacob--could this be Danny? If so, does that mean Danny and Benry are brothers?

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Offline puff6962

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2007, 04:43:08 PM »
Let me restate the problem that I have with this metaphor again....

Monk:  Yet God spared Isaac
Des:  Well one might argue that God need not ask Abraham to sacrifice his son in the first place.
Monk:  Well then it wouldn't have been much of a test, would it brother?

I look at Desmond's situation two ways. 

The first involves his willingness to sacrifice Charlie as fate demands.  In this, Desmond has failed.

The second involves Desmond's willingness to sacrifice what he most desires.  In this, he succeeds.

Desmond was given a set of pieces, his images, culminating is his greatest desire:  a return to Penny.
Desmond is careful not to alter the pieces as this may "Change the picture on the box."
However, by intervening in what will be Charlie's death, Desmond does just that.  He has given up what he most hopes for, most cherishes, for the sake of a life.  He has thus sacrificed a sure reuniting with Penny, risked all that he had hoped for, in the name of his beliefs.

Desmond is forced to be either a holy sinner (going against the island's wishes) or a cruel saint (accepting Charlie's fate).

Offline thwgt

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2007, 05:34:48 PM »

Faith is hope with a track record.  What is lacking from either Desmond or Charlie is a broader faith in the island. 

Who knew puff was a poet?  I like that phrase, did you borrow it or is it original?

Offline puff6962

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2007, 06:17:52 PM »
Original. 

Offline Ailiu

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2007, 06:36:51 PM »
Interesting intrepretion.  I always thought that the whole Abraham-Issac story was simply a test to show how faithful to God he was.  He didn't understand why God demanded him to sacrifice Issac, but he was willing to sacrifice his own son because somehow it was for the best even if he couldn't understand why.  He had to trust God.  And his trust in God was rewarded.

I don't see Des as God but as Abraham.  In this episiode Des has to make a decision to sacrifice something (or someone), and he is faced with the same problem Abraham was.  Does he protect his son and disobey God, or does he trust God's reason(s) and sacrifice his son?  Des must choose whether to let Charlie die and be rewarded (or so he thought) or try to stop it. 

You can decide for yourself whether you think Des responded the same way as Abraham or not.  I personally don't know what to think in that regard.

Offline matahari

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2007, 07:32:11 PM »
Since were waxing biblical... I think they chose the story of Abraham because it is central to Christian, Jewish, and Muslim religions.
Also thought it relevant that Sarah and Rebekah were both infertile yet "God" granted them children in their old ages.(fertility research)
Sarah reportedly lived until she was 137(life extension).
Sarah and Abraham were supposed to "progenate" a population of the righteous for the creation of Israel/Canaan (utopia/Island).

Offline Creflo

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2007, 05:16:51 PM »
I hate to toot my own horn...ok, no I actually love to.

I snuck in the speculation about Abraham/Jacob/Benjamin just a few days before the great Des8 in this post:

TPTB stated that (every?) name is important.  Rather than go through every possible implication of the character being named after the Biblical Jacob, here's a few:

- One of twins.  Esau was the "bad twin".
- The name Jacob means "holds the heel", because his was so gripping Esau who came out first
- Jacob had the vision of the ladder leading to Heaven
- Jacob wrestled an angel to a draw
- The 12 sons represent the 12 tribes of Israel (his new name Israel given after wrasslin the angel...means "Struggled with God")
- His son Joseph (number 11 out of 12) was an interpreter of dreams
- His other son (number 12 out of 12) was named Benjamin


Certainly not as detailed, I give you that.  I was going for brevity, hoping readers would dig the rest up themselves.  At the time, I foolishly thought it unwise to read too much Judeo-Christianity into Lost.  What was I thinking.

Offline puff6962

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2007, 05:52:12 PM »
It is very good to study Genesis as many names, clues, and metaphors have been linked.

To say that the group that we call "the Others" is from the tribe of Jacob may be a mistake.  As stated above, Jacob was faithful in his worship of God, whereas Esau was vile and a pagan.  What's to say that the scientific Others, eating leftover chicken in the frig, are not the pagans? 

Those who felt the effects of the island and developed a relationship based upon faith are far removed from the scientists who studied and attempted to exploit the island's power.  It's almost "the Stand"-ish.

Going back to one of the earliest metaphors upon the island....white / black....there is the suggestion of a division, of two teams.  It is no stretch of logic to say that such a division may have occurred in the group of prior inhabitants or within the individuals themselves.   There may be two Ben's, two Lockes, etc.

Jacob may be a figure outside of this duality.  Going back to Locke, in his discussion of backgammon, he seems to suggest the initial equality of the two teams.  Are we to assume that the split was necessary and a means of ensuring survival of human (?) life upon the island? 

This would be very Asimov, Foundation Series stuff.....Harry Seldon/psychohistory.  The statement of "We're the good guys" is almost indicative of another group around that does things differently.  The question that I am developing is whether the split is along science/faith, past behavior, sacrifice/no sacrifice, etc.?

Offline puff6962

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2007, 06:51:54 PM »
Desmond's initial vision includes Charlie at the parachute as well as Charlie dying.....

Desmond may not be able to pause his flashes to count who all is in the picture, thus he may not truly know how to fullfill the prophecy.  He repeats the metaphor of a puzzle being given without the benefit of any picture on the box.  Later, he clarifies that alterations would "change the picture."  This suggests some contradiction as the statement suggests a knowledge of what the ultimate goal of the sequence is.   In any event, it is interesting that Desmond's vision suggested that he WAS to save Charlie.  Therefore, if he is doing the island's will, then he was to again protect the little cabbage head.  So, I'm again unsure if Desmond's experience truly fits the Abraham metaphor....what was he to sacrifice in the first place?

Offline Ladybug

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Re: The Abraham Metaphor Doesn't Fit
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2007, 12:32:08 PM »
okay it took me awhile to find it and boy do Imiss Des 8 posts:  here's one for you Des sweetie:

Quote
Howdy my good friends.  I posted this on the BR on the 12, actually.  It seems to me that the newbies aren't looking at the overall story arc yet--so chew on this.

 

Post subject: Jacob and the E6 Clue
Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:38 pm   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In S03E06 we learn that the leader of TheOthers' name is "Jacob."

Here's a brief synopsis of Jacob, according to Biblical stories:

Jacob is the son of Isaac and one of two grandsons of Abraham--Jacob was born to Isaac and Rebeckah and was a twin--his twin's name being Esau. In the womb, Jacob would leap whenever Rebeckah passed a holy temple while Esau would leap whenever she passed a place of pagan idol worship.

According to the Bible, the twins were brought up in the same family environment, taught the same values, the same teachings of Abraham and were treated the same, yet each turned out incredibly different. They not only differed in appearance (Esau was hairy, ruddy--while Jacob was smoothe and handsome). Jacob was kind, loving, good, and a man of faith. Esau was nasty, evil, a worshiper of pagan idols and false prophets.

(Jacob's children ultimately became the heads of the 12 tribes of Isreal--they were chosen by God to lead because they were all righteous, good men of faith.)

How does this pertain to LOST?

If Jacob is the leader of TheOthers, who is the Esau in the plotline? The leader of TheOtherOthers? Perhaps Benry was right when he said "we're the good guys, Michael" and "we're good people" or at least think they are--they are disciples if you will, of Jacob.

So Esau's tribe must be one group of serious bad asses is my guess.

This also fits into my twin idea I've been posting since S1 (even before Bad Twin by Gary Troup, an 815 casualty, came out). The book is the story of one each an evil and a good twin--the Widmore twin boys. So was this really a precursor to the yet undeveloped plotline of LOST?

The Biblical theme to LOST is undeniably there--whether it's the Epic of Gilgamesh and Ekindu (who were friends--one good and reserved, one wildly unruly), Charlie's Madonna dream, MrEko and Yemi, "man of science man of faith" etc. I think each has a twin out there--but do we really know who is good and who is bad?

I have an upcoming post about MOSMOF, complete with screen shots to back up my twin/dual time theory--once I can get those little buggers to post.

So for now, chew on the Jacob/Esau twin clue. It was spoonfed to us a long time ago, but now they're banging us over the head with it to figure it out. Even the title of the S03E01 was "A Tale of Two Cities" which is a reference to "twin cities."

cheers
*Des8

PS) Jacob's 12th son's name was Benjamin. Jack calls Benry "Benjamin" in "The Cost of Living" S03E05. Daniel was the 5th son of Jacob--could this be Danny? If so, does that mean Danny and Benry are brothers?

_________________

oh how i LOVE des8.  i hadn't even read this, and here is the topic I started regarding these relationships:
Biblical Refrences
I hadn't even thought about daniel/danny being ben's brother.  WOW!  i REALLY like that idea.