Author Topic: Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'  (Read 3213 times)

Offline T Mack

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Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'
« on: April 09, 2007, 03:01:48 PM »
There is an elephant in the room, and it is Jack.

I believe Jack has now become fully compromised- in the context of what is the 'greater good' for the Losties as a whole.  Maybe he is in with the Others, maybe he isn't, but he's surely in it for himself.  Juliet is in on the long con.

As proof I offer:

Jack and Juliet both have the same shared goal- to leave the island.  They almost got off the island before Locke foiled their plans inadvertently.  Does this mean that no one else wants to get off the island? Of course not, but the other Losties do  not have the insight that now Jack has about the Others(and Juliet will have about the Losties by being on the beach).

Jack faked his unconsciouness from the gas canister, IMO.  There is no way he could have been unconscious for over 24 hours and while Kate and Juliet were in the jungle, he just 'happens' to wake up the exact moment Kate walks in the door. Jack did this to make Kate and Sayid believe that he was also a victim of the Others.

Jack and Juliet are now a team.  They were going to be allowed to go 'home' together, but now their plans have been altered. J & J are now forming a team to save themselves.  Even at the expense of the Losties or the Others, they are only in it for themselves.  Are they helping the Others? Maybe, but only as it relates to them helping themselves.  Are they helping the Losties? Maybe, but only if it advances their agenda.  Jack is using Juliet to find out more about the Others and help himself, while Juliet is using Jack to (infiltrate) and find out more about the Losties so that she can help herself.  In the end, they are actually helping advance each others' agenda.

Juliet is not a part of the Others (she's been branded), but she's not a part of the Losties- they don't trust her.  She has no "family" on the island. Her only way to save herself is to get off the island.

It seems as if the writers and TPTB are setting up a face-off between the two groups- the Losties and the Others.  Whose side will J & J be on?  Neither, but they will use either or both groups for their own benefit, while really not being on either side.

I believe that possibly that one of the "Game Changers" could be that J&J have both been compromised.  Jack as not being totally loyal to the Losties, and Juliet as not been totally loyal to the Others. In this way they can play both groups, gathering as much intelligence as they need in order to get off the island.

Offline puff6962

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Re: Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2007, 03:25:23 PM »
The long con would be conceivable if it were not for Jack.  He walks amonst us, but is not one of us.... nice tatoo, but Jack is a moron, incapable of being duplicitous, and has been at the mercy of anyone wanting to use him the entire three seasons.

I will agree that the Other's gave him a taste of the magic box.  He laughs when Kate asks him if the Others hurt him....almost to suggest that the Other's gave him what he really needed.  Perhaps that is why he isn't too pissed to be staying on the island.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2007, 03:35:16 PM »
A few problems with this theory:

- Locke didn't ruin J & J's plan to leave the island "inadvertendly". He knew he was ruining it. That's why he apologized to Jack right before the sub blew up.

- I didn't think Jack was unconscious for 24 hours. I thought it was only like a few hours longer than Kate and Juliet (??)

- I also thought that Kate "woke" Jack up when she found him, not that he woke up as she walked in the room. And even after that he seemed groggy for awhile immediately afterwards.

- Not sure how learning more about the Losties will help Juliet get off the island, unless they're working with Ben and the Others. And you said that Juliet was no longer a part of the Others, so...And with the sub blown up, isn't that supposed to have caused everyone to question whether or not leaving the island is even possible? Afterall, she was a memer of the group of people who could actually get her off the island, and look what happened to her. If she was able to pull off "long cons" she would have been doing so on THEM to get herself off the island. Instead she's giving book club readings lol.

- Jack has been very faithful to the Losties. The only reason we would think othewise was because he was making a deal with Ben to get off the island without guaranteeing everyone else leaves with him. But he also said to Kate that he'd come back for her--and left unsaid, for the rest of them. He wasn't the equivalent of Micheal, who only wanted Walt back and to get off the island, and ended up killing two of the Losties to do so. Jack's been pretty damn faithful, all things considered.


I DO think that in general you're onto something, in that we'll be questioning Juliet's actions and motives for a few more weeks, at least. And I do think both Jack and Juliet have motives that haven't been made obvious yet. But I don't think it's part of an overall plan.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2007, 03:42:04 PM »
The long con would be conceivable if it were not for Jack.  He walks amonst us, but is not one of us.... nice tatoo, but Jack is a moron, incapable of being duplicitous, and has been at the mercy of anyone wanting to use him the entire three seasons.

Couldn't disagree more.

Jack completely played both Ben and Juliet, and took charge of things while Ben was knocked out on the operating table and at his mercy. That's why Ben wanted Jack to WANT to operate on him: because he knew he'd be at the mercy of Jack's whims.

Juliet, on the otherhand, was in there wondering if Jack was going to do as she asked: kill Ben and make it look like an accident. Next thing SHE knows, Jack's exposing her plans and sending her on a path to trial and possible death. Juliet knew this, which was why she was so damn scared after being ordered out of the operating room by Tom.

Kate came in and begged Jack to do what the Others wanted, or else they'd kill Sawyer. What did Jack do? Looked up at the surveillance camera and simply said "Get her out of here". The threat of killing Sawyer didn't manipulate him one iota.

In fact, I can't think of a single instance this season in which Jack was obviously manipulated, played or has shown stupidity.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 03:45:10 PM by WhatThe »

Offline jugdish

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Re: Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2007, 04:02:30 PM »
- I didn't think Jack was unconscious for 24 hours. I thought it was only like a few hours longer than Kate and Juliet (??)

It was a very long time. Juliet and Kate fell asleep in that tree waiting out Smokie, Then they went back to Othersville. So it was close to a day that Jack would of been out.

Offline puff6962

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Re: Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2007, 04:05:09 PM »
Are you kidding me?  Ben and Juliet knew that, no matter what, Jack would never let a patient die on the table.  Ben sat up the entire Kate / Sawyer hook-up, he videoed it, he knew it would isolate Jack and make him want to do anything to get off the island.  Then, as a trump card, he held Kate and Sawyer to insure that Jack followed through.  Jack got cute and held Ben's life hostage, but Juliet....the one who warned Jack of Ben being dangerous....was offered a separate deal of going home.  Additonal insurance.  Everything has been a mental exercise of Ben.  Plans, back-up plans, fall-back measures....etc.

Jack, in the past, hasn't even been sure when he was being manipulated.  Was Juliet's cards part of Ben's plan?  Probably.  Was Jack's response to Kate's betrayal part of the plan?  Probably.

If Jack is part of any con, he probably needs to learn to recognize whether he is being conned.  Things have never been as Jack perceived.  Kate, Juliet, Sawyer, Locke, Ben, Sarah, etc.


Offline T Mack

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Re: Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2007, 05:40:16 PM »

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A few problems with this theory:

Quote
- Locke didn't ruin J & J's plan to leave the island "inadvertendly". He knew he was ruining it. That's why he apologized to Jack right before the sub blew up.
You're right, inadvertently was the wrong term to use.

 
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I didn't think Jack was unconscious for 24 hours. I thought it was only like a few hours longer than Kate and Juliet (??)

 No, it was over 24 hours, Kate and Juliet were gone all day and night before the came back and found Jack.

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- I also thought that Kate "woke" Jack up when she found him, not that he woke up as she walked in the room. And even after that he seemed groggy for awhile immediately afterwards.
Nada.  You can't "wake up" someone who has been gassed or anesthetized.  They wake up when they wake up. No amount of shaking or talking to them is going to wake them up, they wake up when the drugs wear off.

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- Not sure how learning more about the Losties will help Juliet get off the island, unless they're working with Ben and the Others.
Ahh yes, but as we have seen all is not what it seems on Lost.  The Others are not the only ones with 'the power' on the island now.  The Losties have asserted themselves as a force to be reckoned with.  And with Locke now on both sides of the power struggle, Juliet may need a connection with the Losties to learn more about Locke and his ambitions.

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And with the sub blown up, isn't that supposed to have caused everyone to question whether or not leaving the island is even possible?
Only because that's what the writers have shown you and what they've made you to believe.  I've come to the conclusion to never see only one side of the equation when it comes to Lost.  They always present issues as two sided, or two points of view.  I don't necessarily beleive that the sub is the only way to leave the island, especially if Ben is the one to have said it.  He's an habitual lier and manipulator.

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Afterall, she was a memer of the group of people who could actually get her off the island, and look what happened to her. If she was able to pull off "long cons" she would have been doing so on THEM to get herself off the island. Instead she's giving book club readings lol.
I think that conning Ben has proven to be more fraught with peril than anything she has ever imagined.  She's tried some very slick ways to con Ben (showing Jack the cue cards to get him tokill Ben) and none of it has worked.

Quote
- Jack has been very faithful to the Losties. The only reason we would think othewise was because he was making a deal with Ben to get off the island without guaranteeing everyone else leaves with him. But he also said to Kate that he'd come back for her--and left unsaid, for the rest of them. He wasn't the equivalent of Micheal, who only wanted Walt back and to get off the island, and ended up killing two of the Losties to do so. Jack's been pretty damn faithful, all things considered.
  True but he's not an infallible hero.  He's flawed, "damaged goods" as Kate once told him. And if you don't think he would take his chance to get off of the island and leave everyone else there stranded you haven't been watching the show very closely. :)


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I DO think that in general you're onto something, in that we'll be questioning Juliet's actions and motives for a few more weeks, at least. And I do think both Jack and Juliet have motives that haven't been made obvious yet. But I don't think it's part of an overall plan.
I don't think it was part of an overall plan, either, until Locke blew up the sub and destroyed their chances.  Now the game has changed.

Offline T Mack

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Re: Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2007, 05:52:22 PM »
The long con would be conceivable if it were not for Jack.  He walks amonst us, but is not one of us.... nice tatoo, but Jack is a moron, incapable of being duplicitous, and has been at the mercy of anyone wanting to use him the entire three seasons.

I couldn't disagree more.  Lots of people on the island, Losties included, have proven themselves to be "Double Agents".  They work for both sides, whichever benefits their agenda.  Jack, Locke, Sawyer, Charlie, Nicki and Paulo, Ben, Juliet, Alex and her boyfriend, etc.  They have all 'double crossed' someone, lied to further their agenda, killed someone or hurt someone to further their own agenda.  They 've also shown a propensity to switch sides or form alliances with anyone they think might help their cause.

Something that has stuck with me since season one was a nice little easter egg line that Sun just dropped in one episode.  When discussing the island and the bad things that have happened to them she said  "Maybe we are being punished for the bad things we have done, the lies that we've told".  A very, very well placed bomb she just dropped right there.  May have been a message that the TPTB were sending us.

Offline Creflo

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Re: Jack has been "compromised"- The real 'long con'
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2007, 05:10:40 PM »
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he just 'happens' to wake up the exact moment Kate walks in the door.

This theory has some teeth.  Let's see if it has legs.


Good thread.