Author Topic: Has Sayid's Torturing Ever Worked? Has Juliet Ever Manipulated Anyone?  (Read 6495 times)

Offline WhatThe

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After reading the essay on the front page of this site that mentions "the return of the Sayid we all know and love" and the possibility of him torturing Juliet in order to get answers from her, I started thinking: when has Sayid's torturing ever worked? lol...

He tortured Sawyer. Sawyer outlasted him, even in the pain.
He tortured Ben. Well, he started punching Ben in the face, anyway. Ben never begged for him to stop nor gave up any info, and Jack ended up stopping him in mid-punch.

I can't think of anyone else he's tortured on the island, but if those are the only two then he's striking out in the torture department. So why should we believe his possible torturing of Juliet will be affective in any way?

As for Juliet, has she ever successfully manipulated anyone? We've seen her be violent when necessary, and we've seen her facial expressions and tone of voice give off a strong vibe of not being trusted. But, have we actually seen her succeed in manipulating anyone or any situation?

She tried manipulating Jack with the videotape, wanting him to kill Ben. Jack called her out on it in front of everyone and caused her to pace in a panic when shown alone. She didn't succeed. In fact, she almost was put to death because of it.

She tried manipulating Kate by not letting on that she actually had the key to the handcuffs. However, that lasted a grand total of like 10 minutes before the Smoke Monster freaked her out and caused her to drop the charade and grab the key lol. She didn't succeed.

Ben? HE manipulates everyone like a genius. Juliet is an amateur piker compared to him. And I'm not even sure if her videotaped attempt to have Jack kill Ben should be considered "manipulation". She seemed to be pretty straightforward with him about what she wanted. No manipulation necessary.

But to viewers, Sayid is the master torturer and Juliet is the great manipulator.

Do we have any reason to back up either perceptions?

Offline thlaylirah

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Writing that article last night, I wondered about Sayid's lack of success with torture, so it's funny you brought it up.  Maybe I should have called him Sayid the incompetent torturer. ;D
I guess we'll just have to adjust

Offline WhatThe

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Writing that article last night, I wondered about Sayid's lack of success with torture, so it's funny you brought it up.  Maybe I should have called him Sayid the incompetent torturer. ;D

LOL!! :D...I cracked up at that title for Sayid...he's the Barney Fife of torturers lol. I'm thinking Sayid should try tickling people as torture, because his violence strategy of doing so isn't accomplishing squat.

Offline WhatThe

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Actually, they need to have Jack Bauer crash on the island...he'd get all the answers from the Others in one stinkin' day. ;)

Offline thlaylirah

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Actually, they need to have Jack Bauer crash on the island...he'd get all the answers from the Others in one stinkin' day. ;)

Jack Bauer....Now that is a man who knows how to torture!
I guess we'll just have to adjust

Offline on the island

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Sayid has definately lost some "street cred" on the island.  Hoping that turns around.

I think you underestimate Juliet.  I believe the whole scene where she says she wants Ben dead is all part of the manipulation (although if true it could be Bens' plan anyway).  The best way to gain Jack's trust is to seperate herself from Ben, Jack's biggest enemy.  Create an us against them atmosphere (handcuffed, put on trial, marked and then left behind).

Offline thwgt

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Sayid has definately lost some "street cred" on the island.  Hoping that turns around.

I think you underestimate Juliet.  I believe the whole scene where she says she wants Ben dead is all part of the manipulation (although if true it could be Bens' plan anyway).  The best way to gain Jack's trust is to seperate herself from Ben, Jack's biggest enemy.  Create an us against them atmosphere (handcuffed, put on trial, marked and then left behind).
I agree.  I still thinks there's much more to Julet than what we've seen.

As for Sayid, I used to think that way about him.  I even went as far as considering him a total screw-up (albeit a very self-confident one) because nothing he did worked correctly.  After his last flashback (the woman who forgave him), I haven't been as harsh on him.  Sayid, like so many of the Losties, is on a spiritual journey towards redemption.  He doesn't want to be a torturer anymore and that's why he was ineffectual with Sawyer and would have been with Ben.  It'll be interesting to see what happens this week.

Offline ILoveLost

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Sayid has definately lost some "street cred" on the island.  Hoping that turns around.

I think you underestimate Juliet.  I believe the whole scene where she says she wants Ben dead is all part of the manipulation (although if true it could be Bens' plan anyway).  The best way to gain Jack's trust is to seperate herself from Ben, Jack's biggest enemy.  Create an us against them atmosphere (handcuffed, put on trial, marked and then left behind).

I totally agree with you.

Offline WhatThe

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Sayid has definately lost some "street cred" on the island.  Hoping that turns around.

I think you underestimate Juliet.  I believe the whole scene where she says she wants Ben dead is all part of the manipulation (although if true it could be Bens' plan anyway).  The best way to gain Jack's trust is to seperate herself from Ben, Jack's biggest enemy.  Create an us against them atmosphere (handcuffed, put on trial, marked and then left behind).

The only problem there is that it didn't work lol. It's obvious that Juliet's videotaped plan to kill Ben was not something that was part of a preplaned manipulation of Jack; when Jack called her out in front of Tom and Tom made her leave the operating room, she looked scared as s**t afterwards, as if completely nervous and afraid of what may happen next now that her secret was out. And it wasn't a show to convince anyone because she was alone.

Jack's first allowance of trust for Juliet was after he found out she killed an Other to "help your friends escape" (and even THAT was due to Ben's directive, not anything having to do with Juliet). After that, Jack--for reasons I don't think have been fully explained yet--started warming to her. Or alledgedly started warming to her.

If anything, Jack's true motives this season have been shown to be opposite of what we're expecting. I find it far more likely that Jack has a hidden agenda when it comes to Juliet than I do that Juliet is yet another "plant" into the Losties' camp.

I do agree with you that showing Juliet being separated or disconnected from Ben and the Others in a variety of ways, but I think this is more a plot device to show a possible growing romantic relationship between Jack and Juliet, not an grand master scheme conconted by Juliet to manipulate Jack. Afterall, I highly doubt Juliet desired to manipulate everyone into putting her on trial and brandng her.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 02:50:55 PM by WhatThe »

Offline WhatThe

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Sayid has definately lost some "street cred" on the island.  Hoping that turns around.

I think you underestimate Juliet.  I believe the whole scene where she says she wants Ben dead is all part of the manipulation (although if true it could be Bens' plan anyway).  The best way to gain Jack's trust is to seperate herself from Ben, Jack's biggest enemy.  Create an us against them atmosphere (handcuffed, put on trial, marked and then left behind).
I agree.  I still thinks there's much more to Julet than what we've seen.

As for Sayid, I used to think that way about him.  I even went as far as considering him a total screw-up (albeit a very self-confident one) because nothing he did worked correctly.  After his last flashback (the woman who forgave him), I haven't been as harsh on him.  Sayid, like so many of the Losties, is on a spiritual journey towards redemption.  He doesn't want to be a torturer anymore and that's why he was ineffectual with Sawyer and would have been with Ben.  It'll be interesting to see what happens this week.

I pretty much agre with you about Sayid...they are definitely showing him as reforming from his torturous ways. They even showed him reforming from it before landing on the island. I just wish they'd stay consistent with his actions and character.

They show Sayid in flashbacks going through hell and high water for the woman he loves. He shoots and kills a fellow officer, he shoots himself, he sets up an old friend for the CIA and watches as his friend kills himself as a result...all for the love of one woman, Nadia. Sayid is shown carrying her photo in season one, reflecting on it longingly. And in flashback we see why: he was on his way to the U.S. to finally be reunited with Nadia, the CIA giving him her whereabouts in return for helping them set up his friend.

A week and a half after crashing on the island, he's boinking Shannon lol. :)

Sayid is shown in flashback as basically starting to renounce his torturing ways. He refuses to keep torturing Nadia. Again he'd rather shoot both a fellow officer and himself than do so. He's shown in another flashback as confessing to his past sins to one of his victims, breaking down with tears streaming down his face and telling of how the face of every person he's ever tortured haunts his dreams. He's put it all behind him and he just wants to be a chef, bless his heart.

A week and a half after crashing on the island he's torturing Sawyer for some asthma medicine lol. :)

Offline puff6962

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Re: Has Sayid's Torturing Ever Worked? Has Juliet Ever Manipulated Anyone?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007, 03:37:16 PM »
Sayid's skills as an interrogator are useful....the problem is Karma.  The ends can't justify the means because the means produce ends unto themselves.  I know, there is that word again.  But, Sajid has been able to detect when someone is lying without consequence.  That is a gift inherent to his personality.  When, however, he attempts to use his gift, to expound upon his instincts, the result is counterproductive or deadly.  Ben would have eventually supplied infinitely greater knowledge to the losties if Sajid and Locke had only carefully questioned him.  It was the fruition of their torture that Libby and Anna whatever her name was got murdered.  So

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Has Sayid's Torturing Ever Worked? Has Juliet Ever Manipulated Anyone?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007, 03:43:59 PM »
Sayid's skills as an interrogator are useful....the problem is Karma.  The ends can't justify the means because the means produce ends unto themselves.  I know, there is that word again.  But, Sajid has been able to detect when someone is lying without consequence.  That is a gift inherent to his personality.  When, however, he attempts to use his gift, to expound upon his instincts, the result is counterproductive or deadly.  Ben would have eventually supplied infinitely greater knowledge to the losties if Sajid and Locke had only carefully questioned him.  It was the fruition of their torture that Libby and Anna whatever her name was got murdered.  So

Welp, I agree with you so far, but there seems to be part of your post missing lol... :)

Offline puff6962

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Re: Has Sayid's Torturing Ever Worked? Has Juliet Ever Manipulated Anyone?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 03:52:38 PM »
Oh, ya, had to answer the phone.....

So, Sayid will try and avoid his role as interrogator, but it will fall upon him again.  He will remember the women he tortured and we'll get to feel sorry for him a little..... But, in the end, he will again be ruthless and that is why he was not on the list.  He is unwilling to believe that the answers will be given to him without exploiting his natural gifts.

Karma rolls around again, and again, and again.

Pass me some chicken Earl.

Offline JMart

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Re: Has Sayid's Torturing Ever Worked? Has Juliet Ever Manipulated Anyone?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2007, 12:39:32 AM »
locke - paralyzed
sun - unable to coneive
sayid - torturer
sawyer - con man
hurley - cursed
jack - struggling doctor
kate - prisoner
charlie - drug addict
michael - bad dad



ONCE THEY GOT THE ISLAND, EVERYTHING ABOVE WAS REVERSED.

Offline LouE68

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Re: Has Sayid's Torturing Ever Worked? Has Juliet Ever Manipulated Anyone?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2007, 06:22:06 AM »
locke - paralyzed
sun - unable to coneive
sayid - torturer
sawyer - con man
hurley - cursed
jack - struggling doctor
kate - prisoner
charlie - drug addict
michael - bad dad



ONCE THEY GOT THE ISLAND, EVERYTHING ABOVE WAS REVERSED.
Kinda sounds good, wcept for Michael...he went from bad bad to worse....