Author Topic: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan  (Read 4856 times)

Offline gjohnson

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Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« on: March 31, 2007, 10:51:04 AM »
From Juliet and Ben's dialog in the Pearl Station, Juliet seemed to know that Sawer and Kate were to be taken BEFORE Ben hatches his plan to get Jack to do the surgery. Were they taken for some other purpose? Or is this a slip by the writers? Also, it kinda bugs me tha Pablo knew all about the plan to get Jack, Sawyer and Kate and never said a thing.

Offline HanginWithMrEko

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2007, 01:32:10 PM »
Part of the goal of this episode was to show Paulo and Nikki as selfish people... they didnt tell anyone because he only wanted to hide the diamonds and doesnt care about anyone but him... so it should bother you, but you should also be happy the are dead :)

Offline this is some crazy stuff

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2007, 05:27:16 PM »
From Juliet and Ben's dialog in the Pearl Station, Juliet seemed to know that Sawer and Kate were to be taken BEFORE Ben hatches his plan to get Jack to do the surgery. Were they taken for some other purpose? Or is this a slip by the writers? Also, it kinda bugs me tha Pablo knew all about the plan to get Jack, Sawyer and Kate and never said a thing.

Actually I dont think Kate and Sawyer were supposed to be taken first.

Ben only says Michael but has to get Kate and Sawyer because they are the ones that he knows will go after them.

Offline puff6962

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2007, 06:20:16 PM »
Yes, Kate and Sawyer were meant to be taken.  Ben tells us the reason.  He needs Jack to do the surgery.  How will he do it....he will find out what they are emotionally invested in and exploit it.  Jack was invested in Kate and, after his Sarah experience, the greatest single motivation that could occur would be for Kate to doink Sawyer. Yes, I said doink.  Thus would Jack do anything, including operating on Ben, to get off the island.  Ben thought this through backwards knowing everything about Jack. The question is how did he know everything about the Losties and how did he get so deviously smart?

Offline gjohnson

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2007, 09:59:40 PM »
Sawyer and Kate were on "the List" and Jacob wanted them I think. Can anyone corroborate that? Jack was not and was taken to fix Ben. Ben only knew how to manipulate Jack by posing as Henry Gale and doing a little recon in Lostieville. I don't think Ben knew what Jack was emotionally invested in at the Pearl Station, he was just stating his MO.

I don't think Ben (or anyone) could be as deviously smart and shrewd as he has been. I think being born on the island and/or living on it so long that he has developed the ability to see the future in flashes just as Desmond has (as I have posted elsewhere). I don't think he is omnipotent, but he does seem to have some information about the future. No one could possibly be that right that much of the time. Only someone who could know the future, at least in part, could be that smug.

Offline Wishbone

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2007, 02:22:26 PM »
I don't think Ben has powers like Dessie - I think he is just incredibly manipulative, as he admited in this episode. He knew Jack was emotionally invested in Kate and Sawyer would cause jealousy - he didn't know that Kate and Sawyer would definitely sleep with each other so this was a bit lucky but he put them in jeapordy situations to intensify Kates feelings, showing how manipulative he is.

Ben said they would use Michael to get Jack, Kate and Sawyer but this must have been before he was caught in the net so I do wonder how purposeful that was. I really don't see why he would need to put himself at so much risk when he could already watch the situation from afar in the pearl.

Offline WhatThe

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2007, 03:49:52 PM »
I don't think Ben has powers like Dessie - I think he is just incredibly manipulative, as he admited in this episode. He knew Jack was emotionally invested in Kate and Sawyer would cause jealousy - he didn't know that Kate and Sawyer would definitely sleep with each other so this was a bit lucky but he put them in jeapordy situations to intensify Kates feelings, showing how manipulative he is.

Ben said they would use Michael to get Jack, Kate and Sawyer but this must have been before he was caught in the net so I do wonder how purposeful that was. I really don't see why he would need to put himself at so much risk when he could already watch the situation from afar in the pearl.

Maybe he watched enough from inside the Pearl station to realize he wouldn't really be put in any danger by getting "caught" and taken to the Losties' camp...along with the possibility that since the Others seems to know every freakin' tidbit about the survivors (lol), Ben could have calculated every aspect of each survivor beforehand to determine that the best way of achieving his goals was for he himself to infiltrate the Losties' camp. I dunno.

I do agree, however, that Ben wanted to place Sawyer and Kate together in order to ignite and intensify the feelings they had for one another, as well as to separate them both from Jack...and for the purposes you guys mentioned: disconnecting Jack's desire and connection to the survivors by showing Kate's disconnection from him romantically. The sleeping together was a bonus, the viewing it on the monitors perhaps was "allowed" to happen. Jack's reaction after that seemed to be "Just get me off this damn island".

Offline gjohnson

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2007, 07:09:51 PM »
I have never believed that Ben ever intended to let Jack or Juliet off the island. Flashbacks like Des' are the only way I can think of that he would be so quick to agree to let them go.

Offline Point Place WI

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2007, 09:42:17 PM »
So, if Ben needed the surgery and needed killer Mike to get Ford, Austin, and Shepard to the camp then he also knew that Ana Lucia would gum up the works for Jack and Sawyer also.  It's like since Jack seemed to kinda be into Ana and nobody ever knew besides the others probably that Sawyer and Ana hooked up.  So, basically Ben needed Ana killed.  So, maybe Ben knew all along that the ol Doc was his destiny.  I don't know.  I miss Ana at least she was tough now we got unabomber Locke as the man of action and Sawyer is a wussie

Offline Nancy Drew

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2007, 10:07:59 PM »
I don't think Ben has powers like Dessie - I think he is just incredibly manipulative, as he admited in this episode. He knew Jack was emotionally invested in Kate and Sawyer would cause jealousy - he didn't know that Kate and Sawyer would definitely sleep with each other so this was a bit lucky but he put them in jeapordy situations to intensify Kates feelings, showing how manipulative he is.

Ben said they would use Michael to get Jack, Kate and Sawyer but this must have been before he was caught in the net so I do wonder how purposeful that was. I really don't see why he would need to put himself at so much risk when he could already watch the situation from afar in the pearl.

Maybe he watched enough from inside the Pearl station to realize he wouldn't really be put in any danger by getting "caught" and taken to the Losties' camp...along with the possibility that since the Others seems to know every freakin' tidbit about the survivors (lol), Ben could have calculated every aspect of each survivor beforehand to determine that the best way of achieving his goals was for he himself to infiltrate the Losties' camp. I dunno.

I do agree, however, that Ben wanted to place Sawyer and Kate together in order to ignite and intensify the feelings they had for one another, as well as to separate them both from Jack...and for the purposes you guys mentioned: disconnecting Jack's desire and connection to the survivors by showing Kate's disconnection from him romantically. The sleeping together was a bonus, the viewing it on the monitors perhaps was "allowed" to happen. Jack's reaction after that seemed to be "Just get me off this damn island".

That was definitely a set-up.  I think they knew that Kate would figure out how to get out of the cage.  Just like Sawyer was able to figure out how to get the fish biscuits.  His cage was a device used to occupy the mind of someone who would escape.  He, on the other hand, was their guarantee that Kate would stay there.  Every little detail seems so planned out.  I would almost like to see a flash-back season where the main focus was the others and what was going on with them the whole time the Losties have been on the island.

Offline DIZZYBECKSTER

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2007, 10:15:30 AM »
I'm trying to work out just why Ben is as calculating and scheming? Well, look at his parentage? and upbringing?

If he is the offspring of the deGroots which some have speculated at (with picture of hamster hugging Mommie on his wall) what must it have been like to be raised on a remote island with little or no other children to 'play with' surrounded by wierd scientists doing bizzare experiments with magnets, animals, brainwashing, etc etc ..trying to save the world...

Certainly not the Tellytubbies and Spongebob Squarepants my kids are subjected to.... No wonder he's as paranoid as an android!!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 10:18:57 AM by DIZZYBECKSTER »

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2007, 06:21:45 PM »
I'm trying to work out just why Ben is as calculating and scheming? Well, look at his parentage? and upbringing?

If he is the offspring of the deGroots which some have speculated at (with picture of hamster hugging Mommie on his wall) what must it have been like to be raised on a remote island with little or no other children to 'play with' surrounded by wierd scientists doing bizzare experiments with magnets, animals, brainwashing, etc etc ..trying to save the world...

Certainly not the Tellytubbies and Spongebob Squarepants my kids are subjected to.... No wonder he's as paranoid as an android!!


I fyou think about it though, that is all he has known and would not think that was weird.

Offline daisyrain

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Re: Sawer and Kate meant to be taken before Ben's plan
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2007, 08:55:09 PM »
I don't think Ben has powers like Dessie - I think he is just incredibly manipulative, as he admited in this episode. He knew Jack was emotionally invested in Kate and Sawyer would cause jealousy - he didn't know that Kate and Sawyer would definitely sleep with each other so this was a bit lucky but he put them in jeapordy situations to intensify Kates feelings, showing how manipulative he is.

Ben said they would use Michael to get Jack, Kate and Sawyer but this must have been before he was caught in the net so I do wonder how purposeful that was. I really don't see why he would need to put himself at so much risk when he could already watch the situation from afar in the pearl.

Maybe he watched enough from inside the Pearl station to realize he wouldn't really be put in any danger by getting "caught" and taken to the Losties' camp...along with the possibility that since the Others seems to know every freakin' tidbit about the survivors (lol), Ben could have calculated every aspect of each survivor beforehand to determine that the best way of achieving his goals was for he himself to infiltrate the Losties' camp. I dunno.

I do agree, however, that Ben wanted to place Sawyer and Kate together in order to ignite and intensify the feelings they had for one another, as well as to separate them both from Jack...and for the purposes you guys mentioned: disconnecting Jack's desire and connection to the survivors by showing Kate's disconnection from him romantically. The sleeping together was a bonus, the viewing it on the monitors perhaps was "allowed" to happen. Jack's reaction after that seemed to be "Just get me off this damn island".

That was definitely a set-up.  I think they knew that Kate would figure out how to get out of the cage.  Just like Sawyer was able to figure out how to get the fish biscuits.  His cage was a device used to occupy the mind of someone who would escape.  He, on the other hand, was their guarantee that Kate would stay there.  Every little detail seems so planned out.  I would almost like to see a flash-back season where the main focus was the others and what was going on with them the whole time the Losties have been on the island.

I agree that Jack was allowed to see the shot of Sawyer and Kate, and Kate was meant to figure her cage out and realise she could get out. Also at first Kate was given a dress and little shoes, just before she climbs out the others give her jeans and sneakers so she can climb up and get out of the bars that are wider apart - the cage was built to be climbed out off.