Author Topic: Patchy's Story.  (Read 12086 times)

Offline FrostyLosty

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2007, 04:59:58 PM »
I'll note that the Soviet Union didn't invade Afghanistan until December of '79.  Patchy says the hostiles were on the island long before Dharma.....the date mentioned on the Swan map for a shutdown was '84....there's no way he himself was on the island long before Dharma.
Kelvin's and Patchy's back-stories seem to be the same, them both having military backgrounds, the term 'Just saving the world'.
Either these stories are manufactured in a similar way purposefully, or Kelvin and Patchy were truely recruited by Dharma.
As said on this topic before, just because we have not seen the Dharma folk seem as threatening than the 'Hostiles' does not mean they are capable of killing our Losties.

Offline cbw420

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2007, 05:14:16 PM »
I will go along with the idea that Kelvin was an other also. THe purge took out all of dharma. The word Hostiles is used to scare the losties to stay on their beach. It has not worked. Using it is part of their protocol.

WHAT ABOUT WICKMUND USING THE WORD HOSTILES IN THE VIDEO?

Offline char1

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2007, 05:24:14 PM »
I will go along with the idea that Kelvin was an other also. THe purge took out all of dharma. The word Hostiles is used to scare the losties to stay on their beach. It has not worked. Using it is part of their protocol.

WHAT ABOUT WICKMUND USING THE WORD HOSTILES IN THE VIDEO?
That's where the line between Dharma and the Others is blurry...I like the way it was put here....

As previously suggested, the biggest question is are the "Others" actually "Dharma" or not.  Obviously since Candle calls one group "Hostiles,"  it would seem that there is/was initially some separation between the two.  However, it is impossible at this point to see where that particular line in the sand is. 

Offline horseshoe_crab

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2007, 05:29:13 PM »
OK, let's try to look at the big picture.  We know Dharma was on the island because of all of the Dharma-labeled places and things.  We know The Others are on the island because we've seen them and heard them called by that name.  Now, do we know that any Dharma personnel were ever on the island?  In fact, there aren't that many people that we know are card-carrying Dharma employees!

Other than the obvious need to categorize everyone, why are we trying to separate Dharma and The Others?  Keep in mind how much The Others rely on deception and misinformation (fake beards, fake names, etc.) and it's entirely possible that they are one-in-the-same.  I think it's more important at this point to identify "long-timers" vs. losties.  Is Rousseau part of Dharma/Others?  Radzinsky?  Kelvin?  The only trend I notice is the military training.  Maybe they needed to call in some muscle?

Offline FrostyLosty

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2007, 05:39:07 PM »
OK, let's try to look at the big picture.  We know Dharma was on the island because of all of the Dharma-labeled places and things.  We know The Others are on the island because we've seen them and heard them called by that name.  Now, do we know that any Dharma personnel were ever on the island?  In fact, there aren't that many people that we know are card-carrying Dharma employees!

Other than the obvious need to categorize everyone, why are we trying to separate Dharma and The Others?  Keep in mind how much The Others rely on deception and misinformation (fake beards, fake names, etc.) and it's entirely possible that they are one-in-the-same.  I think it's more important at this point to identify "long-timers" vs. losties.  Is Rousseau part of Dharma/Others?  Radzinsky?  Kelvin?  The only trend I notice is the military training.  Maybe they needed to call in some muscle?
Because Dharma were planning the Purge?

Offline Optimus J

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2007, 05:55:37 PM »
For me is enough the things Sayid accept as the truth. He is a very good judge of character.

Those are the things he accepted:
1- Dharma and others are separated groups
2- Others were in island before Dharma
3- They allowed Dharma to build there
4- The others did strike first and took Dharma stuff
5- Danielle lived for a period among them, because she knows too much for a woman running alone for 16 years

Offline Maddog13

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2007, 06:03:12 PM »
I think the Hostiles are the Losties.  Remember initially he (Patchy) welcomed them in for iced tea and that.  But he was found out very quickly by Sayid. 

And Kelvin did the same with Desmond but it took him 3 years to figure it out so he didnt try and kill Kelvin, and Kelvin didnt try and kill him.


Offline esque0

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2007, 08:40:21 PM »
For me is enough the things Sayid accept as the truth. He is a very good judge of character.

Those are the things he accepted:
1- Dharma and others are separated groups
2- Others were in island before Dharma
3- They allowed Dharma to build there
4- The others did strike first and took Dharma stuff
5- Danielle lived for a period among them, because she knows too much for a woman running alone for 16 years
When is it actually stated on the show that he believes these things? 

mindsparkle

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2007, 06:25:47 AM »
I don't believe any of the people the losties have encountered... Kelvin or Patchy... I think they gave programmed answers that were fed to them by some authority... why would they ever feel compelled to tell the truth on a strange island? 

Offline Optimus J

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2007, 06:33:06 AM »
For me is enough the things Sayid accept as the truth. He is a very good judge of character.

Those are the things he accepted:
1- Dharma and others are separated groups
2- Others were in island before Dharma
3- They allowed Dharma to build there
4- The others did strike first and took Dharma stuff
5- Danielle lived for a period among them, because she knows too much for a woman running alone for 16 years
When is it actually stated on the show that he believes these things? 
When he ironies the first strike of Dharma scientists at the end, and when Kate argue with Danielle and Patchy and Danielle discuss his execution.

Offline char1

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2007, 10:35:42 AM »
For me is enough the things Sayid accept as the truth. He is a very good judge of character.

Those are the things he accepted:
1- Dharma and others are separated groups
2- Others were in island before Dharma
3- They allowed Dharma to build there
4- The others did strike first and took Dharma stuff
5- Danielle lived for a period among them, because she knows too much for a woman running alone for 16 years
When is it actually stated on the show that he believes these things? 
When he ironies the first strike of Dharma scientists at the end, and when Kate argue with Danielle and Patchy and Danielle discuss his execution.


I totally disagree, Sayid never indicated he believed any of these things.  IF Sayid has made judgments like this, he has not indicated it in any way on the show. 

Offline Wishbone

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2007, 11:16:59 AM »
I still think that Kelvin is Dharma through and through.

I do wonder though if Dharma's real experiemnt was science Vs human - machine V's emotion. I'm thinking about Locke's comment when told the computer cheats - he said something like 'that's what seperates us form machines'. I wonder if the whole thing is one massive Dharma experiement and maybe even the others don't realise they're part of it.

As for Patchie, I think he is an other through and through. You can't assume anything he said was the truth as I think the whole point of the flshback was to show how someone will lie convincingly - I believed Sayid when he said he had never seen the woman and when he confessed I wondered if he was only doing it to free himself.

I'm keeping an open mind because they all lie but I think Dharma is still the key to everything on the island - even the others.

Offline Optimus J

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2007, 11:30:20 AM »
Wishbone, there's something that people who keep records of the info could tell, but Kelvin wasn't in the army AFTER Mittlewerk "closed" the Dharma initiative?  So he can't be a real Dharma, since he was on Iraq on the 90's and Dharma wasn't advertising after the 80's.

Offline ILoveLost

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2007, 12:30:01 PM »
Why does Patchy shout 'I didn't cross the line, we had a truce, this is my land, you said I could stay here' after shooting Sayid?
If he is an 'other', surely he must be significantly outside their little ring.

I think he said this because he knew that the Losties had been told about not crossing their line (remember in the episode with the ring of fire) and I think Patchy thought this would make Sayid think he wasn't one of the others.

Offline Optimus J

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Re: Patchy's Story.
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2007, 01:26:34 PM »
I still think that Kelvin is Dharma through and through.

Just checked. The Dharma Initiative was declared cancelled by Hanso Foundation in 1987. The Gulf War between 1990 and 1991. So the history presented by Kelvin and Mikhail that he saw a advertisement of Dharma asking for people to save the world could never been happened to Ilman, at least.
So It was a recruitment from the others, just as the one they did to Juliette.
What I keep thinking is that Kelvin, unlike Mikhail, wasn't LOYAL TO THEM, but instead was a plant sent to spy on the island, and tried to escape to report his findings.

I say he wasn't loyal specially because his behavior the time he told Des about the failsafe. That's not the behavior of a REAL OTHER.