Patchy's Story.

[char1]

didn't danielle use the word "hostiles" too?

Didn't Desmond use the word hostiles the day he came back to the beach in his sail boat drunk? 

If he did, then that must of been influenced by Kelvin

If it was from Kelvin, where did Kelvin get it from?  Either from Dharma( via Radzinksy or maybe a tape w/ Dr. Candle/Wickman) or from the Others...getting it from Kelvin associates Desmond back to the Others, one way or another........and what evidence is there at this point that Dharma and the Others are two seperate entities?

[char1]

I will go along with the idea that Kelvin was an other also. THe purge took out all of dharma. The word Hostiles is used to scare the losties to stay on their beach. It has not worked. Using it is part of their protocol.

I hated this episode because this is a conclusion they wanted you to come to. Kelvin being an Other? Good Grief!

Kelvin had the sailboat and Ben didn't know about it.

Patchy's fake background is just about the same as Kelvin's and even Saiyd's.

Kelvin probably wasn't Dharma either, but not an Other.

Ben wouldn't have known about the boat because Kelvin never got a chance to use it...plus it's not like the Others are necessarily united...look at Alex and Julia. 

Doesn't everyone on this show have a fake background??  I mean, we really don't know a lot about anyone, just the pieces from their flashbacks and their stories. 

[on the island]

I am not sure we can believe any of Patchy's story.  Compare it to Sayid's flashback:

Sayid: I have never seen this woman.  Then - My name is not Najef?, it is Sayid and I was in the Republican Guard, but I did not torture your wife.  Finally, Ok - I did torture her.  He gradually gets to the truth.

Patchy:  I am the last member of Dahrma and this is our history.  Then - I am not Dharma, but everything else I told you is true.  Finally - (Will we find out he made the whole story up?)

[dcnole]

I think Kelvin's use of the term hostiles neither confirms not refutes that he was an Other. The term was clearly the official name given to the Others by the Dharma Initiative, as we see Marvin Candle use the term in videos.  The question I have is, if Kelvin was real Dharma: Did the Others really not know about Swan?  This seems very impractical.  They knew about Pearl, and Pearl had a direct video feed into Swan.  So if they knew about Swan, why didn't they go purge the Dharma guys living inside?  What made Swan the exception? Maybe the answer is because they needed the elctro-magnet being tended to, and since the Swan was so contained by way of the self-quarantine, that the residents didn't pose a threat.

On the other hand, if Kelvin was a fake Dharma (like Patchy), stationed at Swan to keep pressing the button which we now know for sure was important and key to off-island communication, was Kelvin going rogue? Ben didn't know about Desmond's boat.  They may not even have known about Desmond.  And it sure seemed like Kelvin was planning his own escape off the island.  But rogue or no, if Kelvin was an Other and died 3 years ago or however long it was, why didn't the Others feel the need to send a new operative to Swan?  Surely they had to have some way to make sure Kelvin was ok (Pearl observation?), and they had to be a little concerned when he didn't show back up.  I suppose it's possible they just trusted Desmond to keep doing the work. But you'd still think that they would want more direct control over the situation than to trust some Johnny-Come-Lately who washed up ashore.  After all, Desmond didn't know how important his task was beyond Kelvin's vague statements about saving the world.  How could the Others be so sure he wouldnt lose interest? 

We certainly have some new questions about what was going on at Swan. 

[chadley]

at least he answered what the cable that leads into the water is

[char1]

I think Kelvin's use of the term hostiles neither confirms not refutes that he was an Other. The term was clearly the official name given to the Others by the Dharma Initiative, as we see Marvin Candle use the term in videos.  The question I have is, if Kelvin was real Dharma: Did the Others really not know about Swan?  This seems very impractical.  They knew about Pearl, and Pearl had a direct video feed into Swan.  So if they knew about Swan, why didn't they go purge the Dharma guys living inside?  What made Swan the exception? Maybe the answer is because they needed the elctro-magnet being tended to, and since the Swan was so contained by way of the self-quarantine, that the residents didn't pose a threat.

On the other hand, if Kelvin was a fake Dharma (like Patchy), stationed at Swan to keep pressing the button which we now know for sure was important and key to off-island communication, was Kelvin going rogue? Ben didn't know about Desmond's boat.  They may not even have known about Desmond.  And it sure seemed like Kelvin was planning his own escape off the island.  But rogue or no, if Kelvin was an Other and died 3 years ago or however long it was, why didn't the Others feel the need to send a new operative to Swan?  Surely they had to have some way to make sure Kelvin was ok (Pearl observation?), and they had to be a little concerned when he didn't show back up.  I suppose it's possible they just trusted Desmond to keep doing the work. But you'd still think that they would want more direct control over the situation than to trust some Johnny-Come-Lately who washed up ashore.  After all, Desmond didn't know how important his task was beyond Kelvin's vague statements about saving the world.  How could the Others be so sure he wouldnt lose interest? 

We certainly have some new questions about what was going on at Swan. 

I aggree with you.  I think you raise an interesting question about how the Others knew Desmond would keep pushing the button.  Kelvin definitely uses mind control to make Desmond stay, there is no doubt about that...and we know the Others are really good with the whole mind control thing.  Maybe the Others went by faith that whoever was there would use their mind control techniques to get them to push the button...that's what happened to Locke...and at the last minute Locke lost it and rebelled and Desmond turned the fail safe...maybe Locke did the mind control trick on Locke.  I will definitely be thinking about this for a while...I think it's a critical key.  

[Creflo]

But rogue or no, if Kelvin was an Other and died 3 years ago or however long it was, why didn't the Others feel the need to send a new operative to Swan?

Maybe they were satisfied with Desmond until he ran off and left it with Locke.  They monitored the station until they saw trouble (Jack vs Locke) on the horizon and sent Ben as a plant to ensure button pushing.

What would've happened if Desmond began to fail and there were no Losties?  They would've sent Patchy to the Swan and he'd be ready for the next fool to land on the island.  He'd indoctrinate them and the cycle continues.

[mindsparkle]

the only evidence I have that Patchy was an other is that Ms. Klug was with him...  and she is an other.  But they all lie!!

[Kurtis]

There is no question Patchy is with Ms Klugh and the rest of Ben's Crew.  He knows who Jack is and will do anything it takes to keep Sayid, Kate and Locke from rescuing him and finding Otherville -  including throwing himself into an electrified fence/force field thingy.

[dcnole]

the only evidence I have that Patchy was an other is that Ms. Klug was with him...  and she is an other.  But they all lie!!

I think it was clearly implied when he said "Why are we continuing to play this little game?" and then attacks Sayid after Sayid says that they killed one of the Others (with the intent to rile up Patchy).  There is absolutely no other way to interpret this scene, from what I can tell. 

[Versed4every1]

the only evidence I have that Patchy was an other is that Ms. Klug was with him...  and she is an other.  But they all lie!!

The best lies all have a "grain of truth." The hardest part of this episode is picking out what that grain of truth actually is.  Sayid was able to recognize that Mikhail was lying because of his background.  My guess rest of what he said about the sub, the beacon, how he came to be there are probably the truth.  We already knew about the sub and the cable going into the water and it would not be surprising, given the way that they got Juliet on the island, that they would value mercenary types with military backgrounds.

As previously suggested, the biggest question is are the "Others" actually "Dharma" or not.  Obviously since Candle calls one group "Hostiles,"  it would seem that there is/was initially some separation between the two.  However, it is impossible at this point to see where that particular line in the sand is. 

My two cents...

[WhatThe]

I don't think the Hostiles are Dharma people gone bad...I think Patchy's statement about them being on the island "long before Dharma" was the truth. There has been enough evidence shown of people inhabiting the island before Dharma set up camp for me to believe that statement.

[lostatsea]

Why does Patchy shout 'I didn't cross the line, we had a truce, this is my land, you said I could stay here' after shooting Sayid?
If he is an 'other', surely he must be significantly outside their little ring.

Why did he shout out in English? Wouldn't his native tongue shout out first? Did he hear them coming or did he have an alarm system as well?

[WhatThe]

Why does Patchy shout 'I didn't cross the line, we had a truce, this is my land, you said I could stay here' after shooting Sayid?
If he is an 'other', surely he must be significantly outside their little ring.

Why did he shout out in English? Wouldn't his native tongue shout out first? Did he hear them coming or did he have an alarm system as well?

Probably because few of the Others spoke Russian (could be why Bea was with him, she knew his native tongue as where others did not?)...if they all speak English, and you also know English, then you'll probably yell out your comments in English as well.

[00Dawg]

I'll note that the Soviet Union didn't invade Afghanistan until December of '79.  Patchy says the hostiles were on the island long before Dharma.....the date mentioned on the Swan map for a shutdown was '84....there's no way he himself was on the island long before Dharma.