Author Topic: Episode got me thinking... a lot...  (Read 14577 times)

mindsparkle

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Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« on: March 08, 2007, 03:54:28 AM »
REVISED AND SHORTENED A LITTLE BIT... I TRIED...

I liked tonight's episode but I was left with a gut feeling that something just didn't add up...

First of all, the "others" call the Dharma folks "hostiles" – Kelvin called them hostiles, too… why did the others let Dharma build on their land, create all those hatches and lay all those communication lines?  Wouldn't they have wanted them off their island from the beginning? 

Or was there originally a relationship that went sour?  Maybe the Dharma folk made big promises and then didn’t keep them or over ruled the others and imprisoned them… that electric fence could have been there to keep a group of people in and instead of out???

Sayid and bunch meet this man who says he's Dharma...  we know that our losties have been eating Dharma food, have seen Dharma symbols all over the place and have used a lot of Dharma stuff... so does this make our losties more comfortable with Dharma?  Is Dharma just tolerated because it represents civilization?  Let’s have tea!

Thank goodness Sayid was wise to him and didn't just settle fall into that age old trap again! And, why didn't this Dharma/other guy kill Sayid?  Why just wound him, fix him up and then fight him again and pull your gun on him again???

Is this other telling them what they want to hear?  Was there ever really any communications with the outside world?  We don't know?  Maybe it's all a facade... maybe every wire, every button, every thing about this island is one big lie and facade... nothing is real and our losties just don't know it yet?  And, for what -- the stakes are high if Ms Klug is willing to lose her life? 

Something really bothers me about the connection between the others and Dharma, since Dharma labels everything we have become much more comfortable with Dharma than the others.... I am beginning to think that the others and Dharma are two and the same.

We notice that the others also use Dharma supplies... and why would Dharma supply the island knowing the hostiles are running amuck and might have killed off the three or four so called Dharma people they had stationed...  and, why would the others maintain all the Dharma facilities and stuff... if I were an other, that stuff would be so buried in the local dump and the island would revert back to whatever I intended it to be…!

These people manning stations, are they Dharma or the others acting like Dharma, why the ruse?   The hatch was maintained by a button on an outdated computer, something just doesn't add up....the button doesn't get pushed and the thing implodes even with a fail safe… if the others ran Dharma off why keep up the façade… do they think our losties could be Dharma trying to infiltrate them? 

Now you know it's late, but did you see the meat in the freezer?  My first thought was its human!  Gross... maybe these others are cannibals and like the thrill of the hunt, the mind games before they devour their prey... they haven't had fresh meat in ages....  okay, that's sick... maybe that's why they like to capture them, hehehe....

Let's not forget Danielle... I enjoyed seeing her join our group and then all of a sudden she got moralistic on us... I have no beef with these people... what!!!!! They took your child ding bat, you have huge issues with them.... and then she says she'll meet them by the stream... she's not compromising how she has come to survive on the island for 16 years, kid or no kid...  I just thought it was a bit weird, but I was glad to have her along... I like Danielle and want to see her join the losties.
 
I’m hoping Sayid put one of the Dharma books in his back pack, he would be wise too... I hope that's where he got the map... I hope that Locke was aware of what he was doing instead of just innocently playing a game and boom when the building... he had to have noticed the C4, the camera and put two and two together, and he's very familiar with Mr. Candle by now... he's been our guiding us by our instincts up until this point... he always notices stuff before anyone else.

Hurley whipped Sawyer's butt, we saw this coming... it's about time people started catching on to Sawyer and his games... Hurley was a good guy and gave back some mags, knowing how much Sawyer likes to read... I like that everyone shares and Sawyer is going to have to learn to share, too... he really wants to be a part of the gang, he just never learned how to in bully-school.

Yeah, my thoughts are all over the place, something just seems a little off to me… can’t put my finger on it...  Maybe our others are part of the original Dharma that went Lord of the Flies on us and this is the end result... intelligent people crazier than bed bugs, paranoid and having watched one too many episodes of Dragnet!!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 12:16:13 PM by mindsparkle »

BRBob

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2007, 04:17:15 AM »
As much as I like to over analyze Lost and see things that aren't there, you have to take the show at face value.

Do I trust what these people said?
Ben
Tom
Juliette
Mrs. Klugh
Rousseau
Kelvin
Patchy

NO.
They all tell what they want to, but still things are as they appear to be.
There is still more to learn about Dharma and the Others, but I bet we have already been given enough to go on.

Offline Optimus J

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 04:30:38 AM »
I already told it here: if the others are simply hostiles that were on the island before Dharma, then Dharma could never build those structures. The others at some time worked with Dharma. And even a more deep relationship came to the subject: That the others not only took over the Dharma hatches e equipment as too took over the Hanso foundation, and Mittlewerk the head of board without a past, is really a other, that was sent to the mission. That's why Dharma is officially closed, even if it still works, dropping food.

Danielle for me is most likely one of the recruits that came unexpected, just as Jack. They tried to convert her to their side, but she got away, without Alex. Or she could even be like Claire, drugged, but escaped. and that's how she kearned those tricks, as the base she did, and the radio signal. She lived a short with the others.

About Sawyer I still have a thing he said in past poping in my head: "I never did a good thing in all my life."
IF he doesn't know how is to be nice, the friendship, the altruism, we don't know too how he will react the time he first try to do good thing. Perhaps because he is a totally evil character by ignorance of the side of the good, he is the most prone to change sides when presented to the other.

mindsparkle

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2007, 04:30:53 AM »
I think I am taking things at face value and they seem screwy to me so I'm reacting... I shouldn't do that? Am I analyzing too much, reading too much into it?  Honestly, it doesn't feel that way, it just feels like fun to tear it apart like a greasy chicken... finger lickin' good!

mindsparkle

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2007, 04:37:30 AM »
Optimus J, then we are on the same wave length... I read through all the posts but thought what I had to say was more questioning the obvious... there was just something glaringly wrong with tonight's episode that struck me as a big, wake up and smell the coffee statement... 

I think I type too much just like I talk too much... oh, well... we can't all be perfect  ;D ;D

Offline lostatsea

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 04:53:33 AM »
Mindsparkle, you lost me at "Okay, where to start"

j/k

its true though, good post, if the writers are reading here learn to answer up soon! Thanks

Offline LouE68

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 09:56:30 AM »
The thing I noticed second time around, was the Flame logo's, the wine had Swan logos, and the tomato sauce and crackers had plain Dharma on the logo....weird stuff...

I think Dharma, which has been long gone for 20 years now, doesnt know the others took it over...so Patchy was able to get regular drops of food or whatever they need.

Offline dcnole

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 10:59:55 AM »
A few responses to mindsparkle.

1) I don't think they just instinctively trusted Dharma. I do think that they are familiar with Dharma from all the films, and Desmond.  But the reason they trusted Patchy is because of the way he immediately presented himself as if he were in conflict with the Others.  "What are you doing here. We had a deal. You said you'd leave me alone."  I don't think it is especially odd that people in a fairly desperate situation like our friendly castaways would adopt a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality to the situation.  Especially since they had all the guns once they entered the home.  What I thought was interesting about the initial Dharma discussion (before we knew he was a fraud) was that he alluded to being the last Dharma guy left. How does the Swan station fit into THAT comment?  Obviously, Desmond was alive and kicking and doing his Dharma functions until a couple months ago.  Were the Others unaware of the Swan station?  Were they leaving it alone for a reason?  Could they not get in?   And in case your instinct is that they left Desmond alone because he wasn't really Dharma, just a castaway adopted by Dharma, wonder how they knew that and why they didn't want to kill Kelvin.  After all, Kelvin had been left alone before Desmond got there.

2) As for why Patchy didn't just kill Sayid, I think that is fairly typical.  The Others motivations, especially when it comes to inflicting violence on the castaways, have never been easily understood.  I'm actually surprised he shot Sayid at all.  I think that is the harder situation to explain.  Other than Ethan attempting to hang Charlie back in Season 1, think just how few times we've seen Others be outwardly violent in response to non-violent actions by the castaways.  Don't count Pickett since he was clearly not following orders.  It's really quite rare.  My guess is he purposely shot Sayid in non-lethal location, inflicting a would that he knew he could repair, in order to keep up the illusion that he was paranoid and afraid of the Others.  Killing Sayid prior to when his cover was blown and he was backed into a corner probably wasn't in his interest. 

3) I think the toughest thing to explain last night is whether Patchy was being truthful, semi-truthful, or just outright fictitious in his story about the war between Dharma and 'the Hostiles'.  Clearly the term 'Hostiles' has some meaning beyond just Patchy's story, as we saw the pre-programed computer video mention the term as well.  What you have to wonder is that if the Dr. Candle (the Asian Dharma guy) was able to pre-program a video about Hostiles, and he filmed the video in front of what looks like the bookshelf in the downstairs barrack of the Flame Station, then is the whole conflict part of the Dharma initiative in the first place? Part of the experiment that simply went awry?

4) Assuming Danielle is who we think she is, I don't think Danielle's reaction was odd. And it definitely wasn't moralistic. Her point was that she didnt want to get into a conflict with someone and draw attention to herself. It seems the Others don't think she poses much threat since she has steered clear of them for so long and clearly hasn't shown much interest in exploring the outer reaches of the island where the Others tend not to want people to go.  I agree with you that it will be cool if she has more of a consistent role.

5) It is certainly possible Danielle is not who we think she is, though.  It does seem somewhat of a strange coincidence that she was the one to randomly catch the man who happens to be the head of the Others and the surrogate father to her daughter. And she caught him in a net, not to far from the castaway beach, as Ben was walking around alone.  I'm not sure if enough attention has been devoted to exactly what the heck was going on there that led to Ben being caught.  Why was he wandering around the island solo? Did he want to get caught? Did he get caught before or after Michael was caught (since we know Michael was released from Other custody and from the island entirely in exchange for freeing Ben)?  How did he know where Danielle's traps were?  Why would the leader go on such a dangerous undercover assignment? Why would he be so sure Danielle would hand him over to the castaways and not just kill him?  If you assume for the sake of argument that Danielle was conspiring with Ben in some way (as an Other herself, or in cooperation to get her daughter back, in a deal similar to the one Michael got), the whole thing makes a lot more sense.  Not only does it make sense of how Ben got trapped (on purpose) and how he got brought to the castaways (because he asked her to), but Ben being Alex's surrogate father makes him a logical choice to be the one to reach out to Danielle, and explains why he would have to be the one to take the risk in that situation, not someone else lower on the totem pole. 

Offline char1

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 11:34:21 AM »
1-They never trusted Patchy, they were playing along so they could get a look around.

2-Patchy was in the Russian army during the Cold War, he knew how to shoot.  He shot Sayid in the arm, non-fatally, on purpose to convince them there really is a war between him and the "Others." 

3-This episode was spoiled as basically the episode that we will find out the relationship between the Others and Dharma.  I think we found out the Others are Dharma.

mindsparkle

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 12:25:23 PM »
Thanks for your responses.... just one thing about this other, Mr. Patchy and his not killing... yet he sure put Ms. Klug down fast... doesn't make sense?  Did she know she would tell if captured and tortured, so better to shoot her now? What is worth dying for?  These others and/or Dharma aren't too bright, if they just talked to the losties, I think the losties would understand and either work with them and knowing enough they would be able to work some sort of free zone for safety... 

Offline goober

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2007, 12:33:14 PM »
I'm still going with Kelvin being recruited by Dharma. No evidence to say otherwise at this point.

Desmond was stranded like the losties, NOT a Dharma Initiate.

I don't think that the Others knew about the Swan. Kelvin and Desmond never encountered them in the 3 years they were in the Swan.

mindsparkle

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2007, 12:38:53 PM »
I'm beginning to think that the others have been captives up in whoville and are just getting out and about themselves and don't know who these losties are... Dharma spies or what?

Offline Sunflower

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2007, 12:48:24 PM »
The only question that sparked anything from me last night was when Patchy said they had [paraphrased] been on the Island a very long time.  How long? Since 4 toed statue?  They aren't aging? 

mindsparkle

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2007, 12:54:19 PM »
Could just mean generations... and not themselves... I get the impression that they are talking about themselves and not the generations before them.... but just thought I'd add this

Offline char1

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Re: Episode got me thinking... a lot...
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2007, 12:57:52 PM »
I'm still going with Kelvin being recruited by Dharma. No evidence to say otherwise at this point.

Desmond was stranded like the losties, NOT a Dharma Initiate.

I don't think that the Others knew about the Swan. Kelvin and Desmond never encountered them in the 3 years they were in the Swan.
They had maps of the island and books upon books of information, they had to know about the Swan. 
Desmond was stranded, (as far as we know...that could be a lie), and I'm not thinking he became Dharma or an Other, I think he was controlled by Kelvin to perform a function, but really knowing what the big picture was.  The same thing could have happened to Kelvin....and if the same happened to Kelvin, that would explain why Kelvin was wanting to leave, rather than stay until the end and die for his beliefs, like some of the other Others